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| 6 APR 2003 at 7:21am |
Speaker4DeadIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 6 APR 2003
Status : Online | Why is that everytime an editor of this site (*cough Randy cough*) feels the need to rag on action gamers they make the most dated and irrelevant references? I mean, take a look at the latest State of Adventure Gaming. "oom"? "Quake"? Hell, why don't you throw in "Commander Keen" and "Space Invaders" while you're at it? Who plays Doom and Quake anymore, except for nostalgia-minded retrogamers? That'd be like an action gaming enthusiast lambasting modern adventure gamers for playing Maniac Mansion and Zak McKracken. It's not that there's anything wrong with those games, it's just that the genre has advanced tremendously since then, in terms of depth, scope, technology, and innovation. To triviliaze all the games that have followed those two is to display either willful manipulation or stunning ignorance.
I mean, if you're going to rag on action games, why not pick something that action gamers are actually playing to use as an example, like NOLF or Splinter Cell or the Metal Gear series or even Half Life (and THAT'S a dated reference?) Is it because those games offer dynamic varied gameplaying often involving genuine puzzle-solving, well-written plots, character development, a reliance upon strategy, and a great deal more than the oft-maligned "itchy-trigger reflexes"? Is it because that simply admitting the existence of these games shatters the downright juvenile stereotype of the braindead action-gamer and, in turn, brings the adventure gamer off this preposterous intellectual pedestal from which he can readily condescend anyone who happens to like games that require some degree of action? I mean, the whole idea that action gamers are these greasy trigger-happy morons who play games that require no thought might have flown half a decade ago, but it's just kind of pathetic at this point. Brainless action games barely even exist anymore (Serious Sam is the last one I can think of) and they're hardly the most popular sellers...action games with plot, substance, and ADVANCED puzzle-solving would seem to be the top. If you're going to criticize action gamers, do it with some degree of insight and intelligence, rather than drudging out dated and irrelevant stereotypes.
And before this gets out of hand, let me say that this is in no way meant to objectively codemn adventure games or adventure gamers. I got into gaming with adventure games, and I'm a diligent supporter of the genre. I just also happen to be a fan of several other genres of gaming, and it really annoys me to see these bizarre genre-based divisions forming among people when they really don't even make sense. What's weird is this seems to be a phenomenon really heavily limited to adventure gamers; I mean, mainstream critics might say the genre is dead, but you never hear action game sites railing about adventure gamers with insulting stereotypes like "those nerdy locked-up social inverts who can't handle an action game" or something like that. Action gamers tend to see adventure games, shrug, and move on, yet the venom hurled at action gamers, action gamers as a whole, by certain extremely outspoken adventure game fans is just disturbing, particularly because, as I said, it's either astoundingly ignorant of modern action gamers or designed solely to enrage adventure gamers who don't know better, neither of which is exactly a respectable option. I love adventure games, and I love action games, and I respect people who like one and not the other; I have many friends on both sides of the fence. There's no reason to make these divisions anything deeper than a division of interests, no need to draw these whole insulting character insinuations based on them, and hell, if JA, the leading adventure games site does it, that's hardly painting a good face for the rest of us. By throwing out his inflammatory rhetoric, Randy is doing more to harm the reputation of adventure gamers than a million PC-Gamer reviews. It's like the kid in high school who insulted everyone and called them 'sheep' and then whined about being ostracized.
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| 6 APR 2003 at 7:59am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | The way you put it you are possible right but when i read the article i didn't get quite that 'message'. I think he was just trying to make out the big difference between those genres. I don't think that action games are for no-brainers and if they are then i am one of them because i like the genre. I am a hardcore adventure gamer and i am proud of that but i am also proud of the fact that i really like action, RPG and strategy titles! For instance, i am a big fan of Age of Empires or Age of Mythology. Also i am a big fan of Hitman. However, my point is that i am kinda like you but i didn't get offended just because Randy tried to illustrate his (and mine) opinion! You should most certainly re-read the article and try to relax a bit!
The example you gave about the student is a good one but you are probably exaggerating!!! About PC-Gamer i think that many times they have said something insulting about adventure games in many ways but noone ever replied to these things.
Again i tell you Randy tried to illustrate his opinion and show us the great difference betweent the genres!!!
CALM DOWN....
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 6 APR 2003 at 10:33am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | You're absolutely right about action games reaching all new levels of artistry and storytelling, but I haven't seen that much condemnation of action gamers, not from Randy at least.
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| 6 APR 2003 at 4:43pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | What you really want is to get a dictionary and look up "hyperbole"
I forgot my sig.
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| 6 APR 2003 at 4:46pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | What's weird is this seems to be a phenomenon really heavily limited to adventure gamers; I mean, mainstream critics might say the genre is dead, but you never hear action game sites railing about adventure gamers with insulting stereotypes like "those nerdy locked-up social inverts who can't handle an action game" or something like that.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there. I've lost count of the number of vitriolic comments about adventure games I've read from 'mainstream' gamers, who seem to think that just because they don't like the genre, they have a duty to bash it as hard as possible. On the other hand, I agree that sneering at action games doesn't help our case - it just drags us down to their level.
Randy obviously doesn't like action games, which is fair enough, but I do think his comments about these games - and their players - can be a bit harsh. Obviously the nature of these games means that they're mainly going to appeal to a younger demographic, but it is unfair to dismiss all action gamers as immature teenage brats. I'm sure there's plenty of people who enjoy both action and adventure games (me for one). And the games are not all Doom clones either - for instance, tactical FPS games such as SWAT 3 and action-adventures such as Deus Ex have a lot more to them than just mindlessly shooting things.
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| 6 APR 2003 at 9:16pm |
Speaker4DeadIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 6 APR 2003
Status : Online | Perhaps I am overreacting, and not reading into a joke where there is one (though Randy could certainly be accused of the same thing with his rant on Gamespy's somewhat facetious 10 Dead Genres column). Still, even if it's not serious, it just seems that invoking charicatures like he does in his "Beavis and Butthead" rant just makes adventure gamers on the whole look juvenile and divisive.
Also, KSandra, regarding adventure game-bashing...admittedly, action gamers and game critics alike are prone to calling the genre dead (which it isn't, although it's certainly more than a little ill), but that's hardly on par with the damning personal indictments hurled by certain adventure gamers at people who prefer action games. Maybe you're right, and I'm simply ill-informed...I've just never heard of a major action gaming website making broad character statements about adventure gamers.
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| 7 APR 2003 at 8:03pm |
Randy-JAJourneyman
Posts : 1351
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Speaker,
Hey, I have some good medicine for that cough!
Rather than answer your question - and as you know I can ramble on forever - I am going to rewrite small parts of your opening paragraph to reflect what I and many others constantly read in the magzines and some webzines.
Btw, I don't know where you got the impression I hate action games - I am currently playing Grom and Primal. I do dislike mindless fps that advocate brainless violence and new improved ways to show body parts flying through the air.
Why is that everytime an editor of this magazine feels the need to rag on adventure gamers they make the most dated and irrelevant references? I mean, take a look at the latest issue. "Myst"? "King's Quest"? Hell, why don't you throw in "Zork" and "Colossal Cave" while you're at it? Who plays Myst and Leisure Suit Larry anymore, except for nostalgia-minded retrogamers? That'd be like an aventure gaming enthusiast lambasting modern adventure gamers for playing Doom and Quake. It's not that there's anything wrong with those games, it's just that the genre has advanced tremendously since then, in terms of depth, scope, technology, and innovation. To triviliaze all the games that have followed those two is to display either willful manipulation or stunning ignorance.
I mean, if you're going to rag on adventure games, why not pick something that adventure gamers are actually playing to use as an example, like Syberia or Post Mortem or The Longest Journey (and THAT'S a dated reference?) Is it because those games offer dynamic varied gameplaying often involving genuine puzzle-solving, well-written plots, character development, a reliance upon strategy, and a great deal more than the oft-maligned "point-n-click"puzzles?
I hope I've made my point.
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| 7 APR 2003 at 8:24pm |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | I would have put Grim Fandango in place of TLJ. TLJ is not as old as Half-Life.
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| 7 APR 2003 at 10:55pm |
Speaker4DeadIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 6 APR 2003
Status : Online | Hey, I never defended action gaming magazines as bastions of accuracy towards adventure games. Frankly, 99% of them wouldn't know a good adventure game if it bit them in the ass. I'm saying that just because they do it doesn't mean we have to; that's a 3rd grade argument. Bringing us down to their level certainly never works.
and Randy, I dunno. I've been on this forum in the past, and you and I had a good flame war or two in the day. You consistently come off as much more together, reasonable, and informed in these discussions than you do in your column, which seems to be, I dunno, inflamatory, designed to agitate adventure gamers and fuel them against action gamers whereas in discussions you seem pretty level-headed. I don't know if that's an intentional component of your writing style, but as a dual adventure-action gamer, I find it a little off-putting.
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| 8 APR 2003 at 8:49am |
| Deleted User | Randy - thank god Speaker didn't read Bob Freese's last post... when is that guy going to reply, then? Out Of Order'd better be good...
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| 8 APR 2003 at 9:42am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | I downloaded Out of order but i am going to start it in a couple of days.
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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