Markornikov,

A different slant but a reinforcement of my posts on "Dear Esther". 

In "Dear Esther" there is virtually NO INTERACTION WHATSOEVER !

Originally Posted By Len Green (23 MAR 2012 7:09am)

Markornikov,

A different slant but a reinforcement of my posts on "Dear Esther". 

In "Dear Esther" there is virtually NO INTERACTION WHATSOEVER !

which is why i really disliked it sooo much 

Originally Posted By SirDave (22 MAR 2012 11:28pm)

Originally Posted By Val (22 MAR 2012 7:31pm)

Hi Len! Long time, no talk!

How are you and your family. I don't know if you remember me but I used to be Valadmin and the JA+ webmistress.

 

Val? Valadmin? No, can't seem to recall. Nope, I'm sure, don't remember that name. She must have been here just for a very short time. Certainly she couldn't have been around during the high-flying days of JA, when fur was flying and P&R was full of highly intelligent, deeply thought out, movingly presented and always correct points of view by, of course, myself. I'm sure I would have remembered someone called Val otherwise. It's a mystery.

 

(I think I can speak for all of us that we've really missed you around here Val. Always a class act even during some of the more difficult times.)

 

 

Originally Posted By Len Green (23 MAR 2012 2:56am)

Originally Posted By Val (22 MAR 2012 7:31pm)

Hi Len! Long time, no talk!

How are you and your family. I don't know if you remember me but I used to be Valadmin and the JA+ webmistress.

Having taught Physics for more years than I care to remember, you would have thought that I would be pretty good at maths. But it seems that I'm not capable of putting 2 and 2 together.
*OF COURSE* I remember you Val(admin) - how could I forget after so many years?
*****  How are you and all your family. It's good to see you again on the new/renewed JA.
I wonder how you like & react to the quite extensive changes !
*****  Our family are fine (crossing my fingers - new additions 1 great-granddaughter and 1/2 a great-grandson).
*****  I'm doing fine in the last quarter of my 80's - well not quite so fine due to advancing AMD (Age related macular degeneration) - but compared to too many of our family and friends I can't & don't complain !

 

 

Len - glad to hear you and yours are doing pretty good! Macular degeneration - I know a couple other people that have that and it isn't fun.

Most of my family is doing great. Kids growing like weeds and have been bigger than me for a couple years now.

So now I'm "Val" and not "Valadmin" so y'all are just gonna have to get used to that.

Hello to everyone!

al

"Children taller than you"

NICE - Every one of my gransons is 'miles than me (not tha'm particularly tall) !

Sorry to hear about your father - sounds as though you were/are very cut-up !

Excuse vision related typos !

Originally Posted By markornikov (23 MAR 2012 5:39am)

Originally Posted By Fnord (22 MAR 2012 7:42pm)

I feel that RPGs have taken part of the adventure game markert. A good CRPG can offer a similar experience to a good adventure game, i.e. a strong story, interesting characters, and good puzzles (just look at planescape, which has a story so good that people often quote it as one of the pinnacles of storytelling, up there with some of the best books). Looking at the user base, there is quite an overlap, a lot of people here love CRPGs, and over at RPGwatch, it is not uncommon to see people talk about adventure games. 

 

In my opinion RPG's are telling better stories because they allow more interaction from the user perspective.

The whole AG genre seems stuck in a diffent gaming era, that was popular 10 years ago.

Most AG's play like an interactive movie or book, whereas modern RPG's allow for much more interaction by adding  branching storylines, multiple endings and offer much bigger worlds to explore. 

But in order to create such things, you need a much bigger budget for AG's, maybe one day the developers will re-invent the genre

I hope this isn't a dumb question. What is the difference between CRPGs (Computer Role-Playing Games) and RPGs (Role-Playing Games)? Aren't they the same thing?

Originally Posted By Magovani (23 MAR 2012 1:58pm)

 

 

I hope this isn't a dumb question. What is the difference between CRPGs (Computer Role-Playing Games) and RPGs (Role-Playing Games)? Aren't they the same thing?

Usually people will just say RPG when talking about CRPGs, but the original form of RPGs were tabletop games, the C was added to make the difference more obvious. During the 90's and early 00's, we saw the C almost disappearing (it was more common in the 80's), but during the last 10 or so years, the C has seen a resurgence in popularity. I guess this has to do with the wider and wider split between JRPGs and WRPGs, which means that people these days feel that it is important to specify what type of CRPG they were talking about, and now it just feels more natural for people to use that extra letter when talking about CRPGs (previously people would just say RPG, not differing between the different sub-genres, so RPG could mean a game like Final Fantasy, but it could also mean a game like Ultima 7, two games that are worlds apart in gameplay)

***Carolime   "***

Here's a few names I recall, off the top of my head.

Monkeybone, DomBrewer, Scout, Grin, Stammer, Sennebec, Facfac, Pastor Disaster, Wimli, Elfsone, Friday 13th, Bicardijim, Gail, DimiDimiDimi, Ksandra, Michal, Solo22, Betje, Val (who has just reappeared),  Petter Holmberg, Ogre and some who definitely won' be returning: Anne, Daryl, Michelle.   There are quite a few other names that drift about on the edge of my consciousness that I can't remember but which I'd know if I saw them but these were regulars in the Off Topic forum in 2003."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since you seem to go in recently for summarizing & statistics :-
******   I fail to see the purpose of this list of nicknames. Apart from myself & SirDave I doubt there are more than a couple or so of souls on this present Forum who were members of the 'old' JA in 2003 (or for a year or three after that date).  I well remember all those names from years gone by  - but to more or less everybody now they are meaningless.

******   Furthermore, if you add a very generous 50% to your list to account for the folk whose names you have forgotten, we arrive at 36 members who left in 9 years or an overall average of 4 'DESERTERS" PER YEAR !!!

******   The number of NEW members since the New JA Forums opened in January 2012 (i.e. two and a half MONTHS ago) is *AT LEAST ** 6 ** and probably more - I got fed up counting the Main Forum and didn't even START Off-Topic !!

******  But what, if anything do those statistics MEAN OR PROVE ??  ??

Originally Posted By Fnord (23 MAR 2012 2:28pm)

I guess this has to do with the wider and wider split between JRPGs and WRPGs

I'm jumping in.. so what are JRPG and WRPGs then?

Originally Posted By Val (23 MAR 2012 8:51am)

Most of my family is doing great. Kids growing like weeds and have been bigger than me for a couple years now.

Gee, I never knew you had kids! Last time I read your posts you were with Aya.

Originally Posted By tincup2 (23 MAR 2012 9:59pm)

Originally Posted By Fnord (23 MAR 2012 2:28pm)

I guess this has to do with the wider and wider split between JRPGs and WRPGs

 

I'm jumping in.. so what are JRPG abd WRPGs then?

 

Thank you for asking that, tincup. I'd like to know, too!

Originally Posted By Fien (23 MAR 2012 10:00pm)

Originally Posted By Val (23 MAR 2012 8:51am)

Most of my family is doing great. Kids growing like weeds and have been bigger than me for a couple years now.

 

Gee, I never knew you had kids! Last time I read your posts you were with Aya.

 

 

OMG - What a bad memory I have.

Remember remember (the 5th of November - for Brits) !   

Cheers !

Originally Posted By Val (22 MAR 2012 7:31pm)

Hi Len! Long time, no talk!

How are you and your family. I don't know if you remember me but I used to be Valadmin and the JA+ webmistress.

Ah, so I guessed correctly in another thread.  Wow, it's been ages and ages since you've been around... about 5 years, I'd say? Well, nice to see you around again... and you even managed to hold on to one of your old accounts - well done on remembering your password... 

Originally Posted By tincup2 (23 MAR 2012 9:59pm)

Originally Posted By Fnord (23 MAR 2012 2:28pm)

I guess this has to do with the wider and wider split between JRPGs and WRPGs

 

I'm jumping in.. so what are JRPG and WRPGs then?

 

JRPG = Japanese -style RPG - those usually come with consoles.

WRPG's - Western Style RPG's .  Here  American devs like Bioware, Black Isle, etc. used to be strong, but , in one of the great tradegies of Western gaming, EA (Electronic Arts)  bought Bioware and now they're just churning out action-type shooters instead of the D&D type CRPG they started off with, and then later CRPG's of all kinds which feautured strongly with character development especially.  Some other American CPRG devs (Like Black Isle)  also went down the tubes, and we were left dependent on German devs, and one little beacon in the wilderness who makes action RPGs, but good ones, Bethesda. You might have heard of games like The Elder Scrolls (Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are the most recent ones).  Beths also bought the Fallout franchise, which used to be true Western-style CRPG's and turned them into a kind of shooter RPG hybrid - very popular and nice - Beths games are all large, open world games based on exploration.

 Now, sadly, the devs who did the "Dark Eye" related CRPG's have also folded, and now about the only good devs left, are a German based group called Pirhana Bytes and the Polish CD Project Red who make The Witcher games, and, of course, Bethesda.

So, anyway, examples of WRPG's would be the classic Planescape:Torment, the "Sword Coast" D&D games like Baldur's Gate, and the original 2 Fallout Games.  Those are good examples of "classic" CRPG's.  (Turned-based action is the mode of action , and aptitude of characters is based on their statistics.  The player builds up aptitudes and qualities and strengths as he goes along, based on experience and doing quests, by means of "leveling-up"  towards which aim he can get points as a reward for gaining experience and completing quests.)

Then you have a bunch of action RPG's, too many to mention; It started off with the famous Diablo, then come the Elder Scroll games, The newer Fallout games, The Witcher games, and a bunch of Bioware games that show on a continuum of classic to action; from the famous "KOTOR ("Knights of the Old Republic)- which is a "classic"  rather than an action RPG, to Jade Empire (action) to Dragon Age (A mix of classic and action) to Mass Effect.  In Action RPG's, experience is gained and battles fought via direct action, and prowess is dependent in a larger extent on player prowess. (For instance how fast the player clicks or where he lands his blows, or how he maneuvers his mouse, when, for instance, picking a lock) .  In action RPGs the action is typically direct, and not turn-based.

Oh, boy, let me stop because I'm talking your head off, and you probably need specifics rather than examples, such as gameplay, stylistic and other more specific differences between JRPG's vs WRPG's which is quite a large  subject, and I need to take a rest from writing this now. 

I have neither the skills nor the attitude for playing RPG's . Nor have I got the patience or imagination. I also have difficulties in keeping my eyes on charts & gauges of energy, food, weapons, skills, etc. etc.
But I can well believe that they are more sophisticated and 'deeper' than ordinary Quest/Adventures.

However, although I enjoy reading about the many variations & intricacies of RPG's, shouldn't all this be in the "Other Games" Forum ??

Originally Posted By Len Green (24 MAR 2012 6:24am)

I have neither the skills nor the attitude for playing RPG's . Nor have I got the patience or imagination. I also have difficulties in keeping my eyes on charts & gauges of energy, food, weapons, skills, etc. etc.
But I can well believe that they are more sophisticated and 'deeper' than ordinary Quest/Adventures.

 

However, although I enjoy reading about the many variations & intricacies of RPG's, shouldn't all this be in the "Other Games" Forum ??

Hi Len, everybody regularly visiting in the "Other Games " forum altready knows all the intricacies and ins and outs of RPG..- it was specifically non-RPG players who asked to know more about the specific types of RPGs.  That's the whole point of Fnord and myself elaborating on them, and in fact, also ties in with the topic of this thread. 

Originally Posted By tincup2 (22 MAR 2012 7:04pm)

Originally Posted By Caroline (21 MAR 2012 10:45pm)

Seriously?   

 

Remember I've only been on the forum since last March - 1 year now, so I have very little perspective. I've visited JA+ for the game previews/reviews 10+ however, so I *do* notice the overall decline in AG activity, but I was curious about the forum banter. A year ago one could spend quite a while perusing unread threads. Now it can be days between new posts. There seems to be more activity in the RPG section, though not being a devote, I don't benefit much from that.

 

In the days of the politics and religion forum here on JA, and while Randy was still around doing and posting tons of reviews and articles,  the site  was positively cooking!   ( Around pre-2007) Then people got ill, the P&R forum was closed down... and... the place got emptier and emptier.. 

Originally Posted By Traveller (24 MAR 2012 4:48am)

 

 Now, sadly, the devs who did the "Dark Eye" related CRPG's have also folded, and now about the only good devs left, are a German based group called Pirhana Bytes and the Polish CD Project Red who make The Witcher games, and, of course, Bethesda.

Don't forget Larian (the people who made Divinity), they are working on at least one new game right now and Obsidian.  And we also have Spiderweb software (Geneforge, Avadon, Avernum), Basilisk Games (Eschalon) & Rampant games (Frayed Knights) on the indie side of things. 

Here is a video that describes the history of CRPGs and also how the split happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglKS-HfZMw&list=PL05A51C154B1BBD00&index=1&feature=plcp

Also, it is important to note that not all JRPGs are from Japan (just most of them, not counting RPG-maker indie titles), Septera Core and Anachronox also fit into this category, even though they were made in the west.

There is also another sub-genre of CRPGs, known as SRPGs, or Strategy roleplaying games. These are almost always tactical in nature, similar to say Battle Isle or Panzer General, but have persistent characters that level up and get better with time, and in most cases these individual characters have names and personalities of their own. Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy Tactics are probably the most famous ones, and Japanese SRPGs are usually quite clear about what genre they belong to. When we move to the western market, things tends to be a bit more confusing. Is Jagged Alliance an SRPG? It has persistent characters that level up and get betters with time. Each character has a personality of his/her own and a fare amount of dialogue, so I would say yes. Is Chaos Gate an SRPG? It has persistent characters who level up and get better with time, but in this game none of the characters have a personality of their own, just a name, so I would lean towards no (on the other hand, many characters in Final Fantasy tactics don't have a personality either, just a few of the key characters actually have any dialogue. On the other hand, the characters in Wizardry 1 and Final Fantasy 1 are totally devoid of personality, so are they really CRPGs?). 

If anyone is interested in knowing more about CRPGs in general, and some points on good places to start if you are interested in trying out the different types of games, then we could start a new thread in the "other games" forum (CRPGs is probably the widest genre, offering the whole range of experiences, from the slow moving contemplative tactical games to fast moving action games)

Originally Posted By Traveller (24 MAR 2012 7:11am)

Originally Posted By tincup2 (22 MAR 2012 7:04pm)

Originally Posted By Caroline (21 MAR 2012 10:45pm)

Seriously?   

 

Remember I've only been on the forum since last March - 1 year now, so I have very little perspective. I've visited JA+ for the game previews/reviews 10+ however, so I *do* notice the overall decline in AG activity, but I was curious about the forum banter. A year ago one could spend quite a while perusing unread threads. Now it can be days between new posts. There seems to be more activity in the RPG section, though not being a devote, I don't benefit much from that.

 

In the days of the politics and religion forum here on JA, and while Randy was still around doing and posting tons of reviews and articles,  the site  was positively cooking!   ( Around pre-2007) Then people got ill, the P&R forum was closed down... and... the place got emptier and emptier.. 

 

 That particular forum caused alot of bad blood I think for some of the members that were regulars and now dont post at all.

I rarely participated in it but read it quite often as it could be very intertaining.

 I do miss some of those posters.

 Hi Val, I have wondered where you have been and good to hear your family is doing well. Hope to see you around often.

(

Originally Posted By markornikov (23 MAR 2012 5:39am)

In my opinion RPG's are telling better stories because they allow more interaction from the user perspective.

The whole AG genre seems stuck in a diffent gaming era, that was popular 10 years ago.

Most AG's play like an interactive movie or book, whereas modern RPG's allow for much more interaction by adding  branching storylines, multiple endings and offer much bigger worlds to explore. 

But in order to create such things, you need a much bigger budget for AG's, maybe one day the developers will re-invent the genre

There's all sorts of reasons put forward as to why this site is now a lot quieter from the weather to playing more RPGs (you could also blame the influx of casual games), Facebook, Twitter etc.

I don't see AGs stuck in a different gaming era at all - they continue to be a nice niche genre that a lot of people enjoy & the games keep coming along! I don't see how you can re-invent them without them being something else?

I think a big problem for many AG players is that after many years of being used to buying disc versions of a game, many newer ones are available by download only. In a lot of ways I can appreciate this gives instant revenue to a developer to allow them to continue making games - so I do support it if reluctantly. The one advantage is, via GOG, I've been able to download & play some older games that I've read so much about which otherwise I would never have got to play using the original disc versions on my system.

So relying on downloads for many new games could be a contributory factor to the quietness of the site but personally I think it's mainly down to the new look of it - I don't really like it that much!

It's a bit like going to your cosy favourite pub for years & years, you get to know the landlord who leaves & you get a new one. The place needs some 'tarting up' to move with the times but gets altered beyond recognition of it's original character & as a consequence many of the customers go elsewhwere. Sorry! that's just the way I feel about what's been done to this site & hence the quietness.         

Originally Posted By loobiloo (24 MAR 2012 12:24pm)

I don't see AGs stuck in a different gaming era at all - they continue to be a nice niche genre that a lot of people enjoy & the games keep coming along! I don't see how you can re-invent them without them being something else?

 

I agree, except that it's by *not* re-inventing itself all the time [a good thing], that AGs may have evolved into a niche genre and more easily labled as stuck in the past. 10-15 years ago they were the bomb, alsong with things like flight simulators and other genres that have also become niche markets.

Hopefully direct downloads will reinvigorate AGs since packaging and distribution costs are virtually eliminated which simultaneously lowers the price and increases profit margin. There should now be greater incentive for smaller more genre specific developers to brings their goods to market. The indies are a good sign of it too.  

Originally Posted By Fnord (24 MAR 2012 8:32am)

 

Don't forget Larian (the people who made Divinity), they are working on at least one new game right now

I don't know why I thought they'd disappeared... maybe because nobody here seems to share my enthusiasm for Div 2, and I haven't been to The Watch in ages and ages.

We should really update our: "What's on the horizon" thread in Other games.

Originally Posted By Fnord (24 MAR 2012 8:32am)

 

There is also another sub-genre of CRPGs, known as SRPGs, or Strategy roleplaying games. These are almost always tactical in nature, similar to say Battle Isle or Panzer General, but have persistent characters that level up and get better with time, and in most cases these individual characters have names and personalities of their own. Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy Tactics are probably the most famous ones, and Japanese SRPGs are usually quite clear about what genre they belong to. When we move to the western market, things tends to be a bit more confusing. Is Jagged Alliance an SRPG? It has persistent characters that level up and get betters with time. Each character has a personality of his/her own and a fare amount of dialogue, so I would say yes. Is Chaos Gate an SRPG? It has persistent characters who level up and get better with time, but in this game none of the characters have a personality of their own, just a name, so I would lean towards no (on the other hand, many characters in Final Fantasy tactics don't have a personality either, just a few of the key characters actually have any dialogue. On the other hand, the characters in Wizardry 1 and Final Fantasy 1 are totally devoid of personality, so are they really CRPGs?). 

 

 

Actually there are really tons of games in this genre, and you're right, it's sometimes hard to draw a distinct line between genres, especially when it comes to hybrid games with RPG (as in having persistent characters who level up) elements.  You could even place some of the campaigns of the later HOMM games in this category, for instance.

@ Loobiloo:

PS, It's nice to see you around and posting again, Loobiloo!  I really love your new avatar, btw.

Originally Posted By Traveller (24 MAR 2012 1:47pm)

Originally Posted By Fnord (24 MAR 2012 8:32am)

 

Don't forget Larian (the people who made Divinity), they are working on at least one new game right now

  They are?  Oh wonderful!!

I don't know why I thought they'd disappeared... maybe because nobody here seems to share my enthusiasm for Div 2, and I haven't been to The Watch in ages and ages.

We should really update our: "What's on the horizon" thread in Other games.

 

 

Originally Posted By Fnord (24 MAR 2012 8:32am)

 

There is also another sub-genre of CRPGs, known as SRPGs, or Strategy roleplaying games. These are almost always tactical in nature, similar to say Battle Isle or Panzer General, but have persistent characters that level up and get better with time, and in most cases these individual characters have names and personalities of their own. Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy Tactics are probably the most famous ones, and Japanese SRPGs are usually quite clear about what genre they belong to. When we move to the western market, things tends to be a bit more confusing. Is Jagged Alliance an SRPG? It has persistent characters that level up and get betters with time. Each character has a personality of his/her own and a fare amount of dialogue, so I would say yes. Is Chaos Gate an SRPG? It has persistent characters who level up and get better with time, but in this game none of the characters have a personality of their own, just a name, so I would lean towards no (on the other hand, many characters in Final Fantasy tactics don't have a personality either, just a few of the key characters actually have any dialogue. On the other hand, the characters in Wizardry 1 and Final Fantasy 1 are totally devoid of personality, so are they really CRPGs?). 

 

 

 

Actually there are really tons of games in this genre, and you're right, it's sometimes hard to draw a distinct line between genres, especially when it comes to hybrid games with RPG (as in having persistent characters who level up) elements.  You could even place some of the campaigns of the later HOMM games in this category, for instance.

 

 

@ Loobiloo:

PS, It's nice to see you around and posting again, Loobiloo!  I really love your new avatar, btw.

 

I am very sorry. I 'accepted' your previous post where you pointed out that the info regarding RPG's was requested by people who do not visit "Other Games" and hence it was legit to continue with posts on that subject which was clearly NOT :Adventure Games"
However as I feared this thread should not be hijacked into the RPG genre - any more than it could be for example turned into a Forum dealing also with First Person Shooters and their many variations or strategy games or whatever.

Hijacking is considered acceptable here but NOT hijacking into a forum dealing with a different genre entirely WHICH HAS CONTINUED and  is continuing after your earlier post.
After all, there are still plenty of people who come to the "Adventure" forum who do not wish to be diverted into other genres - if it were to continue some might be totally bored, and leave.

If you wish to inform non-RPG players about that genre, the easiest thing to do is to post all that info onto the "Other Games" Forum with A SIMPLE LINK TO IT FROM THIS FORUM !!!

All threads are conversations and should be allowed to develop naturally.   One should resist the temptation to clobber others over the head with the rule book - especially when everyone can remember how and why the forum administration was forced to use that same rule book to manage that same person's behaviour.   

I agree Caroline, frankly I believe the original post was fairly open-ended as to what types of discussion would ensue. Due to my own personal interests I don't play nearly as many adventures these days as I have in the past and thus my presence in the adventure forums reflects such. Sadly though I am reluctant to post anything that I consider of relevance to the subject due to current state of affairs. By my good intentions I had thoughts of an attempt to revive the screenshot thread (IMO a useful tool of comparetively equal value to the "what are you playing" thread) to spike further interest and general disussion of the games we are playing/played/want to play as it once did so effectively. I can almost foresee the obvious.