| 11 SEP 2011 at 12:55pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | A score of 5.9 is quite fast for a non-SSD hard drive, and it does indeed look as if you have managed to snag yourself a nice fast one, H!
...as for the Admin elevation thingie, I have no idea what they mean in the article you pointed to by :" it having been irritating to have "automatically" been an adminstrator before", which incidentally, was not the case with XP - you could create accounts with limited access/functions. However, why anyone would choose to do so on their own home PC, except if you are setting up an account for kids, beats me.
Maybe the elevation thing has been bothering me so much because somehow I'm not an administrator, even though I was the one who installed the OS? :-? Most of the operations I attempt on the computer, (like moving or copying files, for instance) and almost all the software I try to run, generates a prompt that I need to be an administrator to do this, and then I have to "give permission" "as an adminstrator". Very irritating indeed.
Maybe I should read that article more carefully. I wondered why I keep having to jump through these hoops if I'm already an administrator anyway (surely the OS should be able to pick up that I'm one? ...but perhaps I missed something somewhere along the way...
However, if I'm NOT an adminstrator, how come I am able to "give permission" as if I am one? Somehow I miss the point.... :-?
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 2:40pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | The point of the article is to NOT have yourself as administrator, only as a standard user.
This way, each time a program wants to open or change your system, a pop-up comes up, asking you to take on the role of admin to give permission to do so.
This way, it says, no one from the outside can hijack your computer as administrator.
XP did not have this feature.
VISTA apparently made it so rigid that people hated it. Win 7 allows you to set your interaction with these popups.
Me, I find it very irritating. Still, I am not missing anything that makes changes to my computer. Between this security UAP and the WinPatrol program I have really come to love, I get notices of virtually everything.
But still, a novice like me is faced with yes/no questions that I don't fully understand or know what to choose.
When I installed Win 7 I set myself up as admin and used that account when I used my computer. Now, I followed the article and changed that. Now, I login as a standard user and most popups ask me to enter the admin PW and act the role of administrator to OK whatever it is asking me to OK, usually "can this program make changes to your computer."
Since XP did not have this, and, as far as I know, I had NO security problems, I wonder if this is necessary for Win 7. Or, is Win 7 not as secure as XP.
Alllll that said, if you follow the article, it is quite (almost) easy to switch up user accounts, so I figure I can reverse any changes I made at-will.
geesh.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 4:03pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 820
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | [a little rant..] The whole Admin distinction introduced with XP baffled me, and Vista/W7 pop-ups, alerts and permissions etc etc even more so. I can see businesses maybe wanting the boss/slave thing but why you can't just order your PC to act like it's yours, and be done with it, I don't get. And it's not like it has anything to do with online security.
A gaming PC should be like a hot rod - no top just hop in without opening the door. Security? roll bar and a good harness. Simple controls and a key to fire it up. Everything else not dedicated to gaming performance and handling is/should be extraneous. Or at least it ought to be simple enough to set it up like that.
The one thing the consoles have over us - no doubts at all about what the thing is really used for. At this point 90% of what the home PC does that's not game related can be more easily or more conveniently done with a nice mobile tablet.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 4:18pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | The whole Admin distinction introduced with XP baffled me, and Vista/W7 pop-ups, alerts and permissions etc etc even more so.
Well... that was done in response to complaints caused by frequent malware attacks. You can always disable UAC to get around it.
Turn User Account Control on or off
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 4:21pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1316
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (11 SEP 2011 2:39pm)
Or, is Win 7 not as secure as XP.
Of course Win 7 is much more secure, but it is also aware and designed around the fact that 99% of its users are connecting to the internet using a wireless connection, and for all the security protocols and precautions, a wireless network will never be as secure as a wired one, just as any computer linked to a network in any way will never be as secure as a PC that never connects to another one.
Back when good old XP was designed, wireless connections were much more exotic, and taken into consideration when designing security protocols as an afterthought. So it is not so much that XP adressed the problem better, but rather that it ignored it. The 3 Services Packages improved on that, but some things can't be fixed if they have flaws in their base design. And let's face it, it is not in MS best interests to vastly improve an old OS, when it wants customers to fork over their cash for the new, sparkly one.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 4:26pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | To me, XP got the Admin thingie right. For instance, on my one home computer that the kids use, I put myself as adminsitrator and the kids as users so that they couldn't muck anything to do with the system up.
Then, with 7 on their PC as well, I basically had to teach them to "run as administrator", otherwise they would be able to run NONE of their games themselves. As it is, about 70% or more of their games didn't [s]run[/s] no, wouldn even install on their PC. ..and it's not easy to teach a 7-year old how to use VMware, it's simply easier just to let them look over your shoulder when you "run as administrator" and let them do it as well. ...so if a 6 or 7 year old kid is giving permissions as administrator, what is the point?, I ask you with tears in my eyes... at least XP allowed me to force them to use a user account by password protecting my own Administartor's account.
Paradoxically, 7 forced me to allow them to use the PC as adminstrators as well, other I'd have to jump up and down to run their games for them every 5 minutes (and yes, the change to a different fgame literally every 5 minutes a lot of the time)
This way, it says, no one from the outside can hijack your computer as administrator ...erm, that is why people have firewalls and anti-virus software. My previous software that I ran on XP also told me every time something wanted to write anything to my registry, but it allowed me to run software that I myself initialise, especially if it's the 2nd or 100th time that you use the same software.
How hard would it have been to include a 'safe list' feature (that many browsers sport and that you can use anyway regarding your firewall (well, you could with your XP firewall anyway)? How hard would it be to create a pop-up that asks me "do you want to add this program to your safe list?" so that I don't have to give Dreamweaver, my GOG downloader, my games, etc. etc. permission to run the 100th time that I use it?
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 4:30pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By InlandAZ (11 SEP 2011 4:17pm)
The whole Admin distinction introduced with XP baffled me, and Vista/W7 pop-ups, alerts and permissions etc etc even more so.
Well... that was done in response to complaints caused by frequent malware attacks. You can always disable UAC to get around it.
Turn User Account Control on or off
I had a look at that, but it requires you to do a reboot with your UAC completely turned off; you can't toggle it to different levels on the fly, sadly, and I'm not prepared to reboot with my registry completely unprotected by anything, on my online PC that I also use for my internet. Like I said, my previous virusware used to do this (that is now blocked by 7 and it's UAC) It's like the devil and the deep blue sea...
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 4:31pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (11 SEP 2011 4:20pm)
Originally Posted By TAS (11 SEP 2011 2:39pm)
Or, is Win 7 not as secure as XP.
Of course Win 7 is much more secure, but it is also aware and designed around the fact that 99% of its users are connecting to the internet using a wireless connection, and for all the security protocols and precautions, a wireless network will never be as secure as a wired one, just as any computer linked to a network in any way will never be as secure as a PC that never connects to another one.
Back when good old XP was designed, wireless connections were much more exotic, and taken into consideration when designing security protocols as an afterthought. So it is not so much that XP adressed the problem better, but rather that it ignored it. The 3 Services Packages improved on that, but some things can't be fixed if they have flaws in their base design. And let's face it, it is not in MS best interests to vastly improve an old OS, when it wants customers to fork over their cash for the new, sparkly one.
99%? Really? Source?
...and even if the percentage is really that high (which I somehow find hard to believe), would it still have been so hard to program in 1) a feature that allows the owner of the PC to decide, as well as 2) a feature that allows you to "safelist" software that you use every single day?
Hmm, wait a minute; it's good we're wer'e having this conversation - it made me realize that perhaps I'm struggling so much with moving and copying files because some of the hard disks I'm using, were still the disks I was using under XP.
So I might want to fiddle with the "ownership" of those and see if that helps.. Not that I haven't grown used to giving permissions 10000000x a day, anyway... :
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 5:02pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1316
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | 99% might be higher than the true number, but not by much.
Steam statistics show that dial-up modems are less than 3% of the total, and who with broadband that doesn't have a wireless modem/router? They are a standart part of even the most basic connection package provided by any ISP worth its salt in Europe.
Is there really anyone living in a city in a developing/developed nation who doesn't have 15 wireless networks detected by their laptop adapter, no matter where they sit? What is this, 1991?
And that's just home users. Take into account that every library, coffee shop, bar and hotel lounge provides wireless internet coverage for their customers, and you can be sure that MS is very much aware that it is a big, wide, wireless world out there.
As for your direct questions
1) I'd love that too, but any security protocol that doesn't assume its user is a witless idiot that would set himself on fire if only he knew how, is doomed to failure. In other words, such systems are designed with the tech illiterate in mind. And if there is one thing a system security designer knows, it is that everyone fancies themselves an expert, most will take the option to turn "advanced user mode on" if it is given, and when they get burned, guess who they' re going to blame. Solution: Design around the lowest common denominator. Which sucks for anyone that is above it.
2) Now that I'd love to have. But I haven't looked into it that much, perhaps there is a way, just like there is a way to add exception to the firewall.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 5:16pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | I run a wired desktop and cable TV. I have a wireless router for the various laptops that pass in and out of this place.
As to the security protocol being designed for a "witless idiot," it took this idiot a few hours to straighten out my own user protocol, realizing along the way that (I'll bet) most people who set up Win 7 make themselves administrator. It isn't intuitive or PNP, and lay people have no way on earth of discovering what they should do, or even that they are doing it incorrectly....if they are, because I'm still not certain.
Do we have a consensus that running as standard user and entering the admin PW in the popup verifications is the thing to do?
And, by the way, does anyone use Defender? It's referred to as "anti-virus" when it is actually a spyware/malware program.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 5:18pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (11 SEP 2011 5:02pm)
99% might be higher than the true number, but not by much.
Steam statistics show that dial-up modems are less than 3% of the total, and who with broadband that doesn't have a wireless modem/router? They are a standart part of even the most basic connection package provided by any ISP worth its salt in Europe.
Is there really anyone living in a city in a developing/developed nation who doesn't have 15 wireless networks detected by their laptop adapter, no matter where they sit? What is this, 1991?
And that's just home users. Take into account that every library, coffee shop, bar and hotel lounge provides wireless internet coverage for their customers, and you can be sure that MS is very much aware that it is a big, wide, wireless world out there.
Well, I'm sure there must be a lot of people like myself who have a spare PC or 2 that, for various reasons isn't connected to the internet at all, and my desktop is wired - I disabled the wireless for security reasons. Plus wireless is often more expensive.
1) I'd love that too, but any security protocol that doesn't assume its user is a witless idiot that would set himself on fire if only he knew how, is doomed to failure. In other words, such systems are designed with the tech illiterate in mind. And if there is one thing a system security designer knows, it is that everyone fancies themselves an expert, most will take the option to turn "advanced user mode on" if it is given, and when they get burned, guess who they' re going to blame. Solution: Design around the lowest common denominator. Which sucks for anyone that is above it.
Yes, ok, but surely the person installing the OS should at least have an idea; especially if it is for a library, airport or whatever business, which I assume will be installed by a dedicated IT department, all of who have quite a hefty set of safety rules and protocols in this day and age. Smaller businesses usually are serviced by some IT professional or another. Plus they will be buying the "business" package, and home users like myself will be using the "home" package.
Maybe they should have designed a "7 for Idiots"
Ok, no, seriously, I do see that there is a huge risk for laptop users, and perhaps they should have done a 7 for laptops and similar mobile-type users.
But, ok, let me ask you a question, when it comes to home and office use of the OS: It's like you start your car, and then you have to give your engine permission to start turning, just in case it's a thief who started your car. But that's why people in high-risk areas have an anti-hijack system in their car. People who live in areas where car-jackings don't take place, or theft of cars is low, don't have to worry about measures like those.
Don't you agree that such an anti-theft/hijack system (which could turn out to be highly irritating to the owner) shouldn't be built into the car by default, that it should be a choice/decision by the owner of the car if he/she deems it necessary to install an anti-hihack system?
2) Now that I'd love to have. But I haven't looked into it that much, perhaps there is a way, just like there is a way to add exception to the firewall.
If you do find such a feature, I would warm up to 7 considerably... who knows, if it doesn't exist, maybe we could hope for something like that in a srevice pack upgrade?
Oh, and you still haven't given me an answer to my question regarding the plight of users who have kids, and have basically now had to allow their kids admin rights (which I didn't have to do while running XP for them). Can you imagine how that would endanger their PC if they were running internet on that PC? Do you see my point regarding that little aspect - namely that 7 doesn't come up being very family-friendly...?
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 5:28pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Well, I'm a solo user. Why couldn't I set it up as XP, with me as the administrator, no other users? Instead of me giving myself permission to use my own machine?
(good car analogy, Trav)
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 5:54pm |
Mr Innocent.Journeyman
Posts : 1316
Joined: 15 JAN 2008
Location: GR
Status : Offline | When your car gets hijacked, it's a matter that affects you, and maybe your insurance company.
When your PC gets hijacked, it can become part of a zombie network that can be used for anything, ranging from credit card theft to cyberterrorism and child porn distribution.
Welcome to the brave, new world.
Beyond that, I feel that bitching about Win 7 and its features is a matter for the MS forums. I certainly don't feel like apologising for what you don't like about W7, as far as I am concerned, if you don't like it, go get Linux, I don't have MS stock.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 5:57pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 820
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Well... that was done in response to complaints caused by frequent malware attacks. You can always disable UAC to get around it.
Yes I know and I have XP setup OK for me. My little rant had more to do with resentment at just how bloated and all-purpose the OS is - I wish we had the option for a slim, lean and mean germers install.
A few years ago I came across a site dedicated to pulling as much as you can out of XP and still have a stable and functional system - quite a bit it appears. Adopting some of their less extreme techniques I reduced my XP Windows folder to under 4gb - far more bloated than these enthuiasts were getting, but a lot slimmer than a stock install. Coupled with a slim Program Files folder backup image take just minutes.
Ideally I'd like a moduar OS where you start with a small core and plug in only what you need. That's the 'hot rod' concept: luxury is performance and handling, not GPS, electric windows, baby seats, entertainment centers, seat warmers, 4000 pound curb weight, options, options, options...
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 6:09pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nik2008ofs (11 SEP 2011 5:53pm)
When your car gets hijacked, it's a matter that affects you, and maybe your insurance company.
When your PC gets hijacked, it can become part of a zombie network that can be used for anything, ranging from credit card theft to cyberterrorism and child porn distribution.
Welcome to the brave, new world.
Beyond that, I feel that bitching about Win 7 and its features is a matter for the MS forums. I certainly don't feel like apologising for what you don't like about W7, as far as I am concerned, if you don't like it, go get Linux, I don't have MS stock.
Who are you talking to? Settle down. As for me, I opened this thread to answer questions I have. I'm getting some answers, too. I happen to really like this OS.
Complainers don't get answers and they aren't looking for them. As far as I can tell, everyone here would like answers. No one is looking to Mr. Innocent for answers, my friend. Just participate constructively, or not at all. We're all friends here.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 6:38pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By mgonneau (11 SEP 2011 5:56pm)
Ideally I'd like a moduar OS where you start with a small core and plug in only what you need. That's the 'hot rod' concept: luxury is performance and handling, not GPS, electric windows, baby seats, entertainment centers, seat warmers, 4000 pound curb weight, options, options, options...
Now, that is an excellent idea, you know, plus it dovetails perfectly into my issue of more choice for the user - power to the users! [smiley=soapbox.gif] You might be right in that 7 tries to be everything to everyone in one single package, where I feel we would have been better served if we could choose our OS to suit personal circumstances, rather.
Complainers don't get answers and they aren't looking for them. As far as I can tell, everyone here would like answers.
You know, I have been thinking that maybe, just maybe, if one joined an MS forum and posted one's issues there, they might just respond to those when doing a service pack upgrade. That would be great. I suppose it is negative to feel small and like you're just one person in the masses of users out there, which I admit, is how I've been feeling.
I won't be overly optimistic, but I guess I should get a bit more positive, and go and see if I can post my concerns somewhere where it might count, even if only as a tiny drop in the barrel, eh?
I agree that there are security issues that MS might have done well to respond to as they did, but like we have already mentioned, there are ways and ways to fine-tune such a product, and I think we might agree that 7 could do with a bit of fine-tuning, especially as far as the user-interface is concerned (Basically concerned with user's choices, (meaning they could add more choices) and the way the current choices are presented.).
But anyway, yes, Halcyon, I have already learnt things out of this thread - for instance, it prompted me to go and look at the ownership issue of my harddrives.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 8:36pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | I thought the different versions of Windows were supposed to address the different needs of users. Just not all.
When I say I'm looking for "answers" I don't mean Microsoft's "reasons." I just want a good solution for myself. By picking other's brains, I can find that, without diving into yet another wonderful forum experience.
I've Googled some great tips and short cuts for Windows 7 (which is how I also found out about how to handle user security), and it is a nice and impersonal way to do research.
This forum is full of gamers, which makes a difference to me and my puter.
Good luck in MSland.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 9:54pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 820
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | All these concerns pale in comparison to how the NY Giants do in the 2nd half
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 11:50pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Giants fell. epressing.
Tincup, I think you and I might be the only ones in the Eastern time zone. I'm in NJ.
Darn Giants. BTW, I blame Eli for everything.
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| 11 SEP 2011 at 11:59pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (11 SEP 2011 11:49pm)
Tincup, I think you and I might be the only ones in the Eastern time zone. I'm in NJ.
You are not alone. I'm in central Canada, UTC-4 DST.
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 12 SEP 2011 at 2:13am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | woohoo, JK.
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| 12 SEP 2011 at 4:10pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 820
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Wish I could say that about the NY football Giants! What a pitifull performance - not looking good right now...
But back on topic this W7 discussion has given me more enthusiasm to upgrade. On the other hand W8 may not be that far out so my timing may well line up for that release. Which means I'd have skipped Vista and W7. Last time I skiped ME and 2000 so maybe it's a trend.
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| 12 SEP 2011 at 5:25pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By mgonneau (12 SEP 2011 4:10pm)
Wish I could say that about the NY football Giants! What a pitifull performance - not looking good right now...
But back on topic this W7 discussion has given me more enthusiasm to upgrade. On the other hand W8 may not be that far out so my timing may well line up for that release. Which means I'd have skipped Vista and W7. Last time I skiped ME and 2000 so maybe it's a trend.
Hehe, I guess you were lucky to miss ME. 2000 was ok, though.
As long as you run a virtual machine as well for your pre-2010 games, you should be fine, with either 7 or 8. Who knows, 8 might just have better compatibility functionality than it's immediate predecessors, in which case I'd get it in a flash.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 12 SEP 2011 at 5:52pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | I had ME. Holy-moly, what a mess. Back then, I thought it was me, not ME, and drove myself nuts until I began to read all the bug reports.
I am really liking Windows 7. The user thing is just something I don't understand, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Apparently, it does.
So now I have a new power supply (650) 8 gigs of RAM, and an ATI Radeon HD 6870 in the mail (for $159). Now, I am focusing on the ones ... 11/11/11.
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