| 1 JUN 2011 at 4:26pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | I mainly agree with you, Fnord. Especially in cases where the original publishers/devs don't exist anymore but never oficially gave permission for the IP to become abandoneware, or aren't interested at all in the product, etc.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 1 JUN 2011 at 6:31pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 821
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | I accept the concept of Abandonware though readily conceed a defnition is a bit ellusive. But as a baseline, in cases where the only way of finding. using, swapping, and getting involved with obsolete software is through a non-commercial community of fans and collectors whose sole interest is to see the software and it's legacy endure, I can see no sensible objection.
Were the rightful owner to emerge one day and stake his claim, well that would be another story, but like so much in life, there are vast tracts of un-mapped territory. The most reasonable preliminary posture is to accept such natural behavior until, and if, such behavior is discovered to be actually detrimental to someone with legal standing.
Yet even this common sense approach [and let ye who has not made a cassette tape for a friend, photocpied a magazine article, or lent a PC game to his brother, cast the first stone] illicits shrill censure from a self-appointed cabal of insensed observers, who, not satisfied with the robust perogatives enjoyed by the great corporations, with legions of elected officials, lobbyists, lawers and enforcement agencies [police, FBI, Interpol] at their beck and call, feel it neccessary to make.
The legitimate practice of Abandonware is far removed from that of Piracy, for whom the primary aim is avoidance of paying for goods.
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| 1 JUN 2011 at 9:19pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (1 JUN 2011 4:25pm)
I mainly agree with you, Fnord. Especially in cases where the original publishers/devs don't exist anymore but never oficially gave permission for the IP to become abandoneware, or aren't interested at all in the product, etc.
They generally always exist. I contacted the original developer of Fort Apocalypse for the C64 a few years ago because I was working on a remake of it. I wanted to get his permission, which was denied because he was going to be bringing it out on cell phones.
That begs the question: How do you define they don't exist? Just because you did a quick Google search and found nothing does not give you a free license to their wares.
Many of these old titles that *someone* defined as abandonware are making their way back via sites like Gog. Just because they aren't there today doesn't mean they won't be there tomorrow.
I think what bothers me about a lot of this is that people seem to think they have a right to get whatever they want. What every happened to wanting something and working for it?
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| 1 JUN 2011 at 10:36pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 821
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | That begs the question: How do you define they don't exist?
@ Invinia: You are right - that is the hard part and one of the reasons it's not cut and dry. Trading copies is one thing - using material for a remake is another and you did the right thing in tracking down the rights holder for permission. Sort of what I meant by following your conscience. Avoid the conflict before it starts.
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| 2 JUN 2011 at 9:11pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Many of these old titles that *someone* defined as abandonware are making their way back via sites like Gog. Just because they aren't there today doesn't mean they won't be there tomorrow.
This is a good point. Services such as gog or Wii virtual consoles does make it likely that many of the more popular old games will see a return at some point.
But I do find the preservation factor to be an important one when it comes to abandonware sites. While many games are sold through gog, steam and other sites such as those, the vast majority will still never see another release. We have lost many movies & TV-shows of historical interest due to there being no-one interested in preserving them at the time (just look at the original Doctor Who, where several episodes have been lost), and many older games are stored on floppy discs, which makes them almost impossible for most people to install, which would make buying them pointless in the first place.
I do think that abandonware sites should remove any games from their sites if they are being sold again.
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| 2 JUN 2011 at 11:14pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 821
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | I do think that abandonware sites should remove any games from their sites if they are being sold again.
Certainly, if there is to be any legitimacy to the abandonware movement.
However in an paradoxical way, the example of games returning to market after a long stint in the weeds raises the interesting possibility that it is by virtue of the continued popularity of certain titles in the abandonware community itself that demonstrates to the owners the potential commercial viability of these certain titles. The abandonware community may in fact be a sort of Round 2 proving ground and not parasitical after all, an example of the law of unanticipated consequences in action.
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| 13 JUN 2011 at 9:33pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Well, it depends actually. Now, if you're gonna pirate bay an extra popular game with large sales such as duke nukem, you won't hurt the company much, but keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of others will do the same. On the other hand, an independent developer usually doesn't get his game pirate bay'ed nearly as much as the big 'eds, but, to them, each sold copy brings more, plus, the games are cheaper. But I think, in your case, that in honestly wouldn't be something too wicked. And you can't be pursued legally, but I guess you already know that, since you're not worried about a crime, but a sin, indicating most likely you will be your own judge.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 13 JUN 2011 at 10:19pm |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 241
Joined: 24 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | I just saw on the news today that some movie company is going after about 50,000 people who downloaded their movie on a bit torrent. This sounds like it may be civil suits but (now that they have names) I wouldn't be surprised to see criminal charges follow.
"Piracy" is such an innocuous, almost romantic term but if I owned something and someone took it from me, I would call it stealing.
I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike
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| 14 JUN 2011 at 11:00am |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | But they can't sue the people who downloaded it, anyway. Doesn't mean that you should download everything, though.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 14 JUN 2011 at 4:59pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 821
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | but if I owned something and someone took it from me, I would call it stealing
You make a good point but there are competing concepts of ownership at stake. If I buy a game I feel I have the right, as a owner, to lend it to my brother regardless of what the licensing agreement says. If the media company claims they are entitled to an addtional sale, and sent the police over to arrest us for shoplifting, I would call that unlawfull.
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| 15 JUN 2011 at 1:24am |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 241
Joined: 24 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | A typical licensing argeement of a physical copy says that you can transfer a game to another person but it can only be used on one computer at a time. The same agreement says that you cannot transfer the game electronically.
CoD said, "But they can't sue the people who download......".
Yes they can (if they can catch them). They can also file a criminal complaint/charges.
Now, will they do this on an old ("abandonware" title? I doubt it. But it would be just my luck that I download something w/o paying and they decide to make an example of me. :-/
I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike
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| 15 JUN 2011 at 2:58am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 821
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | A typical licensing argeement of a physical copy says that you can transfer a game to another person but it can only be used on one computer at a time. The same agreement says that you cannot transfer the game electronically.
Well that was my sort of my point - Agreements are what a seller claims as a right but are not neccessarily enforcable in ordinary use. Letting other family members use your game copy, even while currently installed on your own comptuer, may well be an infrigement of the agreement but I would be surprised if a court found such a suit worthy of prosecution or even enforcable.
Media agreements are to establish a legal basis for claims against those who seek to profit by unlicenced distribution of their products for monetary gain, or distribution in such a fashion as to demonstably undermine the value of the franchise. The grey area exists somewhere between out and out piracy, and the simple case of ordinary use I describe. Where the line is drawn is a matter of debate, and the legal and civic consensus is neither fixed nor evolving in a specific direction. Each expression of ownership and use pits itself against the other...
PS: Beware - I am gunning for my 200th post so I am liable to say anything..
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| 16 JUN 2011 at 12:25pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MKB (15 JUN 2011 1:24am)
A typical licensing argeement of a physical copy says that you can transfer a game to another person but it can only be used on one computer at a time. The same agreement says that you cannot transfer the game electronically.
CoD said, "But they can't sue the people who download......".
Yes they can (if they can catch them). They can also file a criminal complaint/charges.
Now, will they do this on an old ("abandonware" title? I doubt it. But it would be just my luck that I download something w/o paying and they decide to make an example of me. :-/
Dude, maybe in your country.... Here, no way. Believe me. You can not be pursued legaly for downloading or bying pirate software, by law, only by distributing can you be arrested, but even that. In our capital city, in the very center, you have "pirates" selling games for about 4 or 2.5 euros. Beside them, hundresds of people, if not even a million pass every day and for a number of years (five, at least), nothing's happened to them. I usuall see cops taking some stuff from them too. If you wanna download aboandonware (or anything else, but I wouldn't reccomend it, as I've said you won't be sued, but it does not make it right), just move to Serbia!
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 19 JUN 2011 at 8:44pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | I don't think anyone has ever got into trouble for downloading abandonware, but companies have asked sites to remove games (and at least the underdogs complied).
A lot of countries have similar piracy laws to those in Serbia, it is now illegal to download games/movies/music or any other thing protected by copyright, but it is illegal to spread it. When talking about bit torrent though, it automatically becomes illegal to download something through it, as you will at the same time upload the parts that you have downloaded to other users. Bit torrent is a wonderful technology for spreading files without taking up server space/bandwith though, so spreading legal files that way should not be illegal (some countries have laws that shows a poor understanding of how this actually works/the legal applications of file sharing software, and have outright banned bit torrent and similar types of software. Sweden was not far from receiving such a law).
Well that was my sort of my point - Agreements are what a seller claims as a right but are not neccessarily enforcable in ordinary use. Letting other family members use your game copy, even while currently installed on your own comptuer, may well be an infrigement of the agreement but I would be surprised if a court found such a suit worthy of prosecution or even enforcable.
Currently there is no way to actually enforce such things, without the use of services like steam. I can understand why they want to limit the use of software on multiple computers, but the question is if they don't also overlook a possible source of goodwill. During the mid 90's some games allowed for a sort of mini-installation, that allowed network play without the actual physical disc, which of course might not be for every game, but by making it easy for people to set up LAN games, they did generate a bit of goodwill.
By the way, this is a short video about piracy from a couple of people who are in the industry, that I wholeheartedly agree with.
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| 19 JUN 2011 at 11:59pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 821
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | By the way, this is a short video about piracy from a couple of people who are in the industry, that I wholeheartedly agree with.
yes, and it's quite amusing too.
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| 20 JUN 2011 at 2:39pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | As of now, I don't know about anyone being arrested for dloading pirate software.. At least, not here... Come to think of it... Who is really more to blame? The actual cracker or the people who download it. Anyway, I don't know anyone who doesn't dload because of fear of being arrested, but as a choice. That's my view on it anyway, and why I wouldn't do it. Law or no law, it's the same to me.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 28 JUN 2011 at 3:02am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (1 JUN 2011 3:37pm)
Is piracy always a sin?
Yes, and if you do it, you gonna go straight to hell.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 28 JUN 2011 at 11:30am |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mark (28 JUN 2011 3:02am)
Originally Posted By Fnord (1 JUN 2011 3:37pm)
Is piracy always a sin?
Yes, and if you do it, you gonna go straight to hell.
Yes. Now you should make another thread. "Is Hell really so band?"
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 29 JUN 2011 at 6:05am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dwwa (28 JUN 2011 11:30am)
Originally Posted By Mark (28 JUN 2011 3:02am)
Originally Posted By Fnord (1 JUN 2011 3:37pm)
Is piracy always a sin?
Yes, and if you do it, you gonna go straight to hell.
Yes. Now you should make another thread. "Is Hell really so band?"
Well, from what I've heard, hell is hot, and the devil and his helpers keep poking you in the butt with a trident.
I suppose you meant "bad", not "band". There's a special place reserved for naughty bands. They have to keep playing "Louie, Louie" - over and over and over and over, ad nauseam, forever and ever.
Imagine. Three chords. C, F, and G. Over and over and over. So please don't pirate or play in a lousy band.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 29 JUN 2011 at 11:54am |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | ..... [smiley=scared.gif] .... I...... I'm convinced... I'm gonna buy only privateer software and play like Yngwie Malmsteen!
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 28 JUL 2011 at 7:27pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2539
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | Sin comes from Sinister...or Latin for the right hand of God, on that side is a shadow according to legend and if you err you go into his Shadow.
Yes it is a sin.
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| 29 JUL 2011 at 2:21pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Dude! So be sinful! I hear the chicks love it.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 30 JUL 2011 at 8:01am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | surely, sinister means left .....
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| 1 AUG 2011 at 4:48pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 821
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Sinister means left in Latin, with conotations of bad, wrong, misery etc.
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