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| 31 MAR 2011 at 5:50pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Tincup, I personally doubt that it has so much to do with age. I don't know - I think you are overanalyzing re age and perhaps under-analysing re personality.
I like both 1st person and 3rd person, WASD and P&C, but I don't see how that has anything to do with my age. (Which is neither fossil not kidz).
Many younger players do enjoy first person, because after all, FPS stands for First Person Shooter.
In addition, although I prefer using a computer for gaming for practical reasons, I am not against using a controller - in fact I use a 360 controller for many of my games.
I'm not sure at which age you deem people to become fossils, but I think that videogaming has matured enough to have people of at least 40-50 years of age playing action-games alongside their 12-year old buddies, and all ages inbetween.
I'm not even sure there is such a huge divide, is there? I think there must be quite a few people like myself who couldn't care a whit if a game is either in 1st or 3rd person.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 6:01pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Trav - I didn't mean that the people are fossils at all - I was talking about the sediment of the gaming world as a whole - excavate it and you would discern trends. Also, I meant to say the groups "tend" be older/younger. Your'e also correct the FPS consitute a large segement - but I suspect that FPS grew at the expense of the 1st person AG.
But I do agree with you that this is all over-analyzing, why I put it in the Hot Spot! 67 posts so far and phew.. how do you guys keep it up?!
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 6:42pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | I was just joking/teasing a bit with the fossil thing. I know you didn't mean it offensively.
I was just trying to make a point that I think the demography of the modern gaming public has become rather mixed by now. I mean - what age of person do you think would enjoy Tom Clancy novels? It would be quite interesting to see an age demographic for that one. id you now that even older to elderly ladies read YA novels? : I was quite interested to see this trend on the book site (Goodreads) that I frequent.
..so some entertainment venues seem to defy age, just as it does to some extent with gender, I think. I think the guys who make movies for instance, have caught on to this, which is why many modern kid's movies are also made with adults in mind.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 1 APR 2011 at 2:42am |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/Lady_Kestrel/Explore.jpg[/IMG]
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 1 APR 2011 at 3:02am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | LadyKestrel - I get it: the first pic is 1st person, the second is 3rd person...
Trav - the soft touch is always appreciated, but I still think that something big happened when all the kids that actually grew up on computer games finally entered the market.. but too tired to over-analyize right now..
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| 1 APR 2011 at 3:11am |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | It's from a gamers' calendar I made a couple of years ago, Tincup. I just thought it would make you smile.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 1 APR 2011 at 4:02am |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 241
Joined: 24 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | I'm 61 and started AG'ing when PCs first came out. When the graphic AGs started coming out I got hooked on 3rd-person games (especially the Sierra games). To this day, I prefer 3rd-person. I tried (several times) to get into 1st-person AGs but I have yet to complete one.
Even before PCs, I didn't like the console platformers. I did, however, like PacMan and Asteroids but I think it was more the atmosphere in which the games were found (bars, saloons, taverns...my old drinking days) than the games themselves.
I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike
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| 1 APR 2011 at 4:42pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Well, given game sales most people play 3rd person AG's, so it's not surprising many prefer the mode. But I suspect the mean/average age of those strongly favoring 1P AG's is a bit higher than those strongly favoring 3P for the domographic reasons i tried to lay out.
Basically my point was that the older people that had the cash for PC's and games in the 90's were from a generation that had not played console games in their youth, and that this was reflected in the kinds of games that made it to market during that time. With the genX'ers taking center stage new dynamics came into play... basically a dry and boring observation really..
Perhaps all this business about how little time modern children spend outside in un-supervised play since the arrival of computers an internet - seated all day/night long in front of purveyors of mass culture, maybe the current trend towards narrative/games-as-interactive-movies makes some sense - these games offer an experience more natural and rewarding for those that are always expecting to be told a story. It might be perplexing or even uncomfortable for many of these people to have to make do with what they encounter on their own and to be tasked with creating their own narrative. bla bla bla lol...
This would exhibit itself only as a tendency, not a monolithic sterotype.
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| 16 APR 2011 at 6:01pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | I have been giving the 3rd person more of a go recently - based largely on the enthusiam expressed on this site for the mode.
I now have a question: It seems to me that it would be easy for the game designers to offer a 3rd/1st person toggle. They did if for Myst Uru [thank god], but it doesn't seem to be the norm. Why? The 3D graphics are there, and with mouse /wasd controls all they need to do is locate the POV where the players eyes would naturally be. Sometimes you get a "mouselook" hold down key option but it's not used for movement. Is there an industry/customer aversion to 1st person except in shooters?
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| 16 APR 2011 at 10:52pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Some of Frogwares Sherlock Holmes games give the option to toggle between 1st & 3rd person perspective & the reason they did this was because some players suffer from motion sickness from the 3D panning in the 1st person mode.
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| 18 APR 2011 at 12:37am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By mgonneau (16 APR 2011 6:01pm)
I now have a question: It seems to me that it would be easy for the game designers to offer a 3rd/1st person toggle. They did if for Myst Uru [thank god], but it doesn't seem to be the norm. Why? The 3D graphics are there, and with mouse /wasd controls all they need to do is locate the POV where the players eyes would naturally be. Sometimes you get a "mouselook" hold down key option but it's not used for movement. Is there an industry/customer aversion to 1st person except in shooters?
The 3D graphics are NOT there, though more games are moving in that direction. Most 3rd person adventure games are still 2.5D. Most 1st person adventure games are still 2D. Node-based games with panning are not 3D -- you are essentially looking at different parts of a huge screenshot that extends beyond the edges of your monitor.
And even if a game is 3D, notice the difference in where the camera is placed between the 1st and 3rd person views in Uru and in the Sherlock Holmes games (since The Awakened). The default view of the graphics has to be redone. The first person view is closer to you than the 3rd person, where your view is from further back. In Uru, the 3rd person (actually follow-cam) view is higher from the ground as well as being pulled back behind the character. Extra work has to go into deciding how far back to go when you change a 1st person game to 3rd person. And after you decide that, you can't simply stick a 3D character on the screen and expect them to look like they're part of the picture. There's a lot of extra work that has to be done, and most companies are trying to keep costs down.
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| 18 APR 2011 at 3:10am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Thanks Jenny - I know that node based games are 2D and it's for this reason so much detail can be incorporated into the rendered scenes and why small production teams often achieve excellent results. However I wasn't aware that most 3rd person games were still 2.5D - I play too few of them to really know. That being the case a lot of work would be involved to make a convincing 1st person POV.
But in a fully 3D game the situation should be considerably easier - I wouldn't be surprised if the 1st POV would be even easier to implement since there would be almost no 'camera work' programming involved [and an element to the 3rd person gaming I'm not a great fan of]. I've tried out a few 3D/3rd person games where the camera is essentially right behind the avatar [not in the classic 3/4 overhead] and I ended up playing these almost like a 1st person game, gradually learning not to pay attention to the avatar but concentrate on my surroundings, which is what I enjoy.
That beig said I'm going to take a stab at Cursed Mountain since the subject/setting is of particular interest to me and that should allow me to really give it a fair shake...
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| 29 APR 2011 at 1:03pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Back inthe 80s when I bought my first pc, - for $4000 which was a HUGE amount - it was such a strange thing to have done that I didn't know anyone else who had a home computer.
So I think tincup has a valid point about who was buying the computers back in the dark ages - not only the nerdy types but those who had the cash - ie not teenagers. I think this audience was catered to with the kind of games being created but once the consoles arrived, and young kids became gamers, the big sales shifted and games were designed to cater to their tastes.
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| 30 APR 2011 at 2:39am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @ Caroline - yes, thank you - that was my point. BTW I got my first PC a bit later than you, mid 90's, but it still st me back about $2500, lol.
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| 1 MAY 2011 at 2:52am |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2539
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | tincup the diff between first and third person for a game is the development cost bottom line. To make a game that allows you to SEE the player avatar moving about like Tomb Raider, Oblvion, Morrowind, and URU is that the game world has to be constructed totally 3D, or in the case of point and click, enabled for the overlay character to move about across the game scene. this is a huge increase in devel costs as the walk meshes, game spaces and up and down movment on elevations of scenery all has to be created and enabled. First person you move somewhat the same and many FPS shooters have complex game worlds but it is a difference. Many good games do have a toggle and I prefer that myself..i like first for some things and third for others..but if i had to choose i would choose third person over first. Just my personal preference, many will have one or the other.
As for the other questions, i think modern kids tend to be more passive and less self directing yes. society is moving that way...tho there is a smokescreen of interactivity based on social networking and such that makes it SEEM like we are more active but it is a mirage for it is sham action and nothing real.
as for console, i never use em and never plan to.
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| 1 MAY 2011 at 2:34pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | I just wish more full 3D third-person games had "the 1st/3rd toggle" - Mass Effect for example.
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| 3 MAY 2011 at 7:10pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2539
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | i totally agree i think is is soooo much better when we have that option, i always look for it first thing ...i was happy to find it for Thief III, it made all the differnce for that cool game.
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| 13 JUN 2011 at 9:27pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | The problem is, games designed as 3rd personae can't have, or rarely do the 1s/3rd toggle. But some 1st personae games, oblivion for example, have it. Because, graphic tends to be much more detailed in 1st personae games, and graphic in 3rd not so much. I guess you get what I'm truing to say. Mass Effect wouldn't look so wonderful form 1st person.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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