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| 19 MAR 2011 at 8:46am | |
TravellerGuild Master  Posts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Do you, as a male or female, feel that some games are gender-biased towards favoring males? I as a female, feel that a lot of action and wargames are made from a male perspective. You can, for instance, only play as a male protagonist in a lot of them. I'm thinking here, for instance especially of the Gothic RPG games, or the Two Worlds RPG games, and so on. Also, in most shooters, you are playing as a male. I was also wondering if many other females like myself have a relatively low tolerance for tons of realistic graphic violence, like people exploding in a shower of blood and guts, heads, arms and body pieces flying everywhere. (..and yet, somehow in Bloodrayne I had found that to be rather fun - perhaps because it wasn't quite as realistic, and because it was vampires you were decapitating and not people... ) Males seem to actually enjoy this kind of thing?? (Well, games are becoming more and more graphically violent, so someone must be wanting it). I don't want to sound gender-biased, but I cannot imagine that females would be clamoring for this kind of thing, or otherwise I'm just a particularly squicky female. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 10:33am | |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet  Posts : 130 Joined: 23 APR 2004 Status : Offline | I feel the way you do about violence in games - it has no appeal to me. I have difficulty understanding people (demographically speaking, mostly young males) who are into all the war and gore stuff. And since this is the Hot Spot, I might as well say that I believe your reaction (and mine) is normal. It is those holding the opposing viewpoint who need to justify theirs. [url=http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/album.php?u=57439][i]King's Quest[/i] & [i]Space Quest[/i] galleries (Telltale Forums)[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.adventurecompanion.com]The Adventure Companion[/url] |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 11:05am | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | In reply to your last post in the Gray Matter thread, Simo, and relevant to the general discussion here, I just want to say the following: I am ashamed to admit that as much as I usually shout foul when it comes to stereotypes, I don't think I have completely managed to throw off my own subtle cultural conditioning yet. Here I'm not talking about sexual orientation at all- (note I was not the one who brought up sexual orientation in the Gray Matter thread) . In fact, when it comes to sexual orientation stereotypes, I actually get very irritated with certain stereotypes, which I believe are not representative of the homosexual/asexual/bisexual/hetrosexual male and female) spectrum at all. I have a few friends falling in the "non-hetereosexual" group, and I see them as people first and foremost, and do not label them by their sexual orientation, which is, as far as i am concerned, not something which is always cast in stone, anyway. However, when it comes to male/female stereotypes - of course overtly speaking, I am against stereotyping, but there is this "young male loves gory violent games" stereotype. That is in part what this thread is about. How valid is this stereotype? Is the demographical evidence skewed by other factors? Are there in fact females who love this kind of thing as well, but are just too ashamed/inhibited to say so? As Simo brought to our attention, it is certainly not ALL males who enjoy exploding people in a shower of blood and gore, but there must be a certain category of people who do, and I suspect the reason for them liking it might be reasonably complex. The simplest of all possible explanations would be the role of testosterone, which is not a factor that can be 'helped' by males, any more than females can 'help' their oestrogen levels. However, I think there are other, more complex reasons at play as well, as to why people might enjoy violence at all in games. I personally enjoy to some extent a feeling of 'mastery' or even 'survivial' that might be gotten in managing to overcome foes. I just don't enjoy feeling like Jack the Ripper while getting there. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 12:23pm | |
JKingSchattenjger  Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline | You know, as a boy I found gore in games attractive probably because it was shocking. Of course it had little of the detail you can see today, but imagination can fill in a lot. Easily the bloodiest game I've played is, fittingly, "Blood". That one was a satire of violent, gory games, though. It was also, very good on its own merits. I'd bet few games today could do as well. In Blood the gore was too common to possibly shock, and I think the developers were very conscious of this. They were just having fun being completely ridiculous. It's worth noting that there next game, "Shogo: Mobile Armor Division", has next to no blood at all. Nowadays I just ignore that sort of thing. It's frankly beneath me to notice how depraved things can get just for the sake of maybe increasing sales a little bit. :-/ You can't kill someone in a studio. |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 12:28pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Strange you should mention Blood.. I think the Blood series just became available on GOG, should you have any nostalgia for it... It's frankly beneath me to notice how depraved things can get just for the sake of maybe increasing sales a little bit. Ah, do you see what you said there? You are automatically assuming that these elements would "increase sales" Now, I cannot help wondering why that is. Why would you assume it, or why would the makers of these games assume it? That automatically implies that there must be a large market for it. ..which brings me to wonder how they do their market research, and what they base such decisions on. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 12:44pm | |
JKingSchattenjgerPosts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (19 MAR 2011 12:28pm) I did notice that! I still have my copy, though. It's frankly beneath me to notice how depraved things can get just for the sake of maybe increasing sales a little bit. I can only assume that there is such a belief in the industry: suits like to play things safe to maximize possible returns, so if they really wanted to reach the widest possible audience they'd try and get the lowest possible content rating they could. Therefore one can surmise that they believe there is an adequate trade-off between shutting out the under-"X" market and the apparent allure of a more restrictive content rating. on't you think? You can't kill someone in a studio. |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 1:07pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | " the apparent allure of a more restrictive content rating." ? ....erm.. - you mean that the allure of the 'forbidden fruit' might have for under-agers who then would go out of their way to play it just because they are not allowed to, in much the same way that people make a point of reading banned books just to see what it is all about? In this case, it would be boys proving their manhood ? Is that what it is about? Well, I can't help finding it a little sickening that I am forced to play games where I have no option to shut the gore off (in particular the last 2 Fallout games, and Dragon Age 2), so that some teenage boy can in some convoluted way prove his manhood. : * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 1:14pm | |
loobilooPrivate Detective  Posts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | Hi Traveller, I think games generally have for a long time been seen as the domain of males (& children) reflected in the bigger budget titles aimed at them & the many sexist gaming mags I've read in the past. I would guess that there are many more male than female gameplayers altogether due to the stereotyping of what a game is - many people who know that I play games equate them with action/shooters as they're the ones most heavily advertised & is all they know. Although I'm sure that there are many females who enjoy these type of games, I do think that generally they are gender-biased towards favoring males as I think they represent the majority of the market for them - it would be interesting to know if they would appeal to more females if made from a female perspective & whether this would affect sales from male players. Personally, it wouldn't make any difference to me as I don't enjoy those type of games anyway - maybe because I'm female? although I'm sure that there are many males that don't enjoy them either regardless of their sexual orientation. On the subject of the gender of the protaganist, for me it doesn't make any difference in an adventure game as I'm more focused on that person's story, but do you think that playing as a male protagonist in action, shooters & RPGs in itself represents a bias towards male players? A game with tons of realistic graphic violence wouldn't appeal to me, although I could tolerate it on a more minimal level in context of a good story. It's not something I need to make a game enjoyable & would agree that it would probably appeal to more males than females. I would tend to think that the majority of female players would favor adventure & casual games over other genres. But, I think the story aspect of adventure games along with the absence of any bias towards favoring either gender in many of them make them appealing to both male & female players. There are exceptions such as the Nancy Drew series which is aimed at teenage girls but non-the-less enjoyed by many older females & some males. Also, games such as Culpa Innata which include 'girly' aspects such as clothes shopping & choosing an outfit to wear present some bias towards favoring female players. Many adventure games have a female protagonist but I'm not sure that the gender (it has to be one or the other!) necessarily equates with the game being made from either perspective except for aspects of the character within the story? On the subject of Gray Matter I do agree with you that it's a game that possibly appeals, to begin with, to more female than male players but in your last post you suggested this in answer to Halycon's post asking "Is the game as juvenile as the demo?" [smiley=laughing.gif] |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 1:34pm | |
JKingSchattenjgerPosts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (19 MAR 2011 1:06pm) No, I meant, rather, that it may be something of an echo chamber. Gore where there was no gore shocks, and since people do tend to be fascinated by scandal, it sells. This grows into an assumption, later, that gore in and of itself will sell. So games as a rule became bloody. Of course a game is more likely to rise or fall based on its actual merits rather than a little red, but I suspect that over time certain stereotypes simply got ingrained in the thought processes of publishers. You can't kill someone in a studio. |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 2:07pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By loobiloo (19 MAR 2011 1:14pm) ..although that is truly not what I had meant to imply, Loobiloo. I don't know - maybe I had found Halcyon's post to be rather cranky and was caught off guard by it... I suppose I can see how he might have found some aspects of the game a tad juvenille, especially from the restricted perspective of a demo. But my remark about the males and females was just plain silly, and I truly regret by now having said it. I wish I could just go and delete it, but editing it out now, would throw the whole rest of the thread with regard to people's reactions into meaninglessness as to what exactly it is that people are reacting against. :-/ @ Jking: I do see your point, yes. You mention "a little red" Well, that seems to be rather playing it down.. - how about : Graphically cutting a person's body in half, with blood spurting out of the bottom half of his body, while the upper half disintegrates into a human head and bits of a human body, some of which spatters over the player character. What am I supposed to do; pick up some pieces of spleen here and bowel there, and eat it out of a severed hand, and go "Yum! tasty! " That is to me what the whole mentality feels like. It's fine if certain games like Postal do this kind of thing for the people who enjoy it. ..but would it have been so very hard to just have programmed an option to toggle off having this happen in the sequels to more popular games, for those that don't enjoy it? Dragon Age: O didn't have it, so why am I forced to eat it up in DA2? Please, please don't tell me it will be forced on me in Skyrim as well... [smiley=eww.gif] [smiley=cry.gif] I'm all for ppl having their gore if they want it - but why can't there be an option to turn it off, like there used to be in games of yore? Oh, and Loobiloo, I think you might be surprised to find out how many females do in fact enjoy action games, MMO games and RPG's. For some reason real-time strategy doesn't seem to be all that popular with females, but fantasy-themed turn-based strategy games like Heroes of Might and Magic (I love them too ) seem to have quite a large female following as well. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 2:27pm | |
JKingSchattenjgerPosts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (19 MAR 2011 2:06pm) I was speaking in historical terms. Of course things are rather more extreme nowadays, in some cases... You can't kill someone in a studio. |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 2:29pm | |
DonaJourneyman  Posts : 801 Joined: 19 MAR 2005 Status : Offline | I play a wide range of games (the only genre I really, really don't like is strategy) and I'd say, some games really are geared towards one gender (usually male, since developers still somehow believe only boys play games, which is far from the truth). Gore doesn't bother me, I'm pretty much indifferent towards it. Except when it's too realistic - sometimes I feel sorry for poor zombies in Left 4 Dead, for example. And I cannot stomach games like Manhunt that are nothing but blatant human torture. As far as protagonists go, I don't mind the gender of the main character because I just accept it as a story about a character who happens to be of a certain gender. I'm far, far more bothered by character design in games, since a lot of females still go beast-hunting in bras and hotpants while males have heavy, full-body armour. THIS is what makes me go, "Oh, they made this game with boys in mind". Same goes for character creators that assume all females have one same body type, with big boobs and wide hips. Originally Posted By placeholder (19 MAR 2011 2:06pm) Such "gorefest" can be fun if it's stylized, however, I HATE splatters all over my screen! Can't see what I'm playing, it's not realistic at all (unless the character is wearing goggles, I guess?) and it's just annoying. |
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 3:26pm | |
loobilooPrivate DetectivePosts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (19 MAR 2011 2:06pm) I do realise that a lot of females do enjoy action, MMO & RPGs but yes, I could be surprised by how many! But, the majority of them do seemed to be made with a male market in mind in view of the character design of the females in many of them, as Dona has pointed out. I have myself enjoyed playing many of the earlier Tomb Raider games on consol when I ran out of AGs to buy, but since having a PC much prefer to play the plentiful supply of AGs available. |
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| 20 MAR 2011 at 5:59pm | |
Lucien21Guild Master Posts : 4876 Joined: 9 JUL 2003 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Cooking Mama is a suitable game for women [smiley=evil.gif] [smiley=evil.gif] Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount. |
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| 20 MAR 2011 at 6:05pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (20 MAR 2011 5:59pm) [smiley=furious.gif] Oooh, Lucien, wait til I get my [s]hands[/s] hatchet on you!!!! [smiley=furious.gif] * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 20 MAR 2011 at 6:12pm | |
loobilooPrivate DetectivePosts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (20 MAR 2011 5:59pm) Oh, you've tried it Lucien - how did you find it? [smiley=angel_smiley.gif] |
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| 21 MAR 2011 at 9:43am | |
pirateIntergalactic Janitor Posts : 5 Joined: 10 MAR 2011 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (20 MAR 2011 5:59pm) That's right! It's even called "Mama" which means a lot... But I can imagine that there are different games of which the title isn't that clear about the gender, maybe even games like solitaire aime to a certain gender, who knows?! |
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| 25 MAR 2011 at 9:07pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Case in point, from the Bioware forums:
and The straight male demographic is a huge demographic. I'd put the number that over 80% of RPG fans are males. Where the heck does this guy get this info from? 80% ??? Oh come on..- nobody ever asked me to fill in a questionnaire and asked wether I was male or female, so my guess is that if anybody is even bothering to do market research on the gender distribution of gamers, they are somehow excluding females from responding in the first place... * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 26 MAR 2011 at 1:14am | |
DonaJourneymanPosts : 801 Joined: 19 MAR 2005 Status : Offline | So much generalisation in that post, I can't...- The Sims, seriously? Of course that's all women play : And what does he mean by "there should have been much more focus in on making sure us male gamers were happy"? What is it that didn't make him "happy" enough in DA? Ugh. What a wonderful mindset to have. |
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| 26 MAR 2011 at 9:05am | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Yeah, I tried to log in on the Bioware forums, but since I've never really posted there, and visit it very seldom, I couldn't remember my password. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure that I wasn't asked what my gender was when I created my account. So how on earth does Bioware know how many females or not are playing their games? Oh, and btw, I did try Sims once and I really tried to stick with it, but was bored out of my mind pretty quickly. I mean, it's all work, food, sleep potty-time, etc. etc in endless repetition.. :-/ * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 26 MAR 2011 at 5:22pm | |
tincup2Journeyman Posts : 820 Joined: 8 MAR 2011 Location: US, NYC Status : Offline | Going back to your original question "do certain games appeal more to males/females" I would think the simple answer is yes. I Can't cite any statistics but it would not surprise me at all if AG's have proportionatley more female players than say strategy or FPS. And I get the general impression we, that is the males, have you, that is the ladies, to thank for reinvigorating the moribund AG genre by drawing developer's attention into producing games they could successfully market to women as well as men [or guys or dudes]. A few years ago AG's had seemed to have run afoul of the dictates of male-oriented advertising and were perched for extinction. So as one guy that likes to pepper his violence-ridden gaming with a lot of games where "dude nothing's going on!", thanks! |
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| 26 MAR 2011 at 6:17pm | |
Lucien21Guild MasterPosts : 4876 Joined: 9 JUL 2003 Location: 0 Status : Offline | To seriously answer the question. Studies in the past have shown that women in the main tend to steer away from games with violence, over sexualised female characters and competitive elements. They tend to gravitate more towards games with social interaction with real or virtual characters, peaceful less competitive strategy games and less competive natured games. For males it's mostly about winning or beating other people, whereas the females it was more about the playing of the game itself than the result. The genres that women skewed towards were Sims style games, RPG's and unsurprisingly Adventure games. Genres with slower pace, More cooperation and interaction and no competition to win. http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.html Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount. |
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| 26 MAR 2011 at 9:53pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (26 MAR 2011 6:17pm) Gosh, well, the last time I looked I was a real woman, and I love my games to be competitive. That's what gaming is about for me - to overcome a challenge. Sure, I admit that I shy away from hard-core violence. I also feel rather uncomfortable with certain shooters because culturally that's not what I'm used to, I suppose, though by no means do I never play shooters. ..so if women are so un-competitive, why do they bother taking part in competitive sports? I think it comes down to a question of confidence. I also am very shy of just jumping in and competing with males, which is why i don't have the confidence to do online competitive games. I also know that when it comes to 'brawn' in RL, I'll come short. However, when it comes to things like chess or target shooting or motor-car racing, I'm not afraid of a man per se, and am happy to take on any man. Except if he is the world-champion, of course... : . * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 27 MAR 2011 at 1:03am | |
DonaJourneymanPosts : 801 Joined: 19 MAR 2005 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (26 MAR 2011 9:53pm) Culture. Girls are taught to be "nice" while boys are encouraged to fight for themselves and show no emotion. Studies show that major gender differences lie in physical abilities, rather than mental, it is what our culture has taught us that made us believe we are so "different" when, in reality, we're not. There was a really good article about a study of one of the oldest matriarchal tribes. Guess what, women were incredibly competitive (much like men are in our moder society) while men weren't. I'll try to find that article again, though it's been a while. EDIT: Haha, Sophia Blake in that article Lucien linked! http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.image003.png |
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| 27 MAR 2011 at 3:30pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4039 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (26 MAR 2011 6:17pm) Right, I've finally managed to wade through that entire article, and here is my response: Ever heard of research bias? When reading that article, it becomes abundantly clear that this was present in spadesful while doing that research. You can throw the study done on German 18-26-year olds out the window, it is a totally worthless piece of rubbish, from a scientific method POV. Their age group is small and the population is small and handpicked. Furthermore, they threw out all the responses that did not fit in with their preconceived ideas, which was almost half the repsonses! Also, they expect all females to fit into an exact mold as if we were clones. (Attack of the clones. ) Are all males exactly the same? No? Well guess what, females aren't either! Which makes this entire thread a bit silly and redundant. However, it adresses a popular perception, and not necessarily a truth. Now scroll down to the little graph that you see underneath the text that says: The comparison of male and female respondents with respect to their intensity of use of different computer game genres supported H1: blah blah. Check out that females seem to enjoy RPG's (They used Baldur's Gate as an example), more than males do! ..and Dragon Age is supposed to be built on the legacy of BD..- LOL! (Note, this is the game that the big-mouthed straight male gamer claimed was 80% male territory) I also noticed that they did not even include the TBS genre, such as Age Of Wonders or HOMM! I would certainly say that RPG's and turn based strategy are competitive, since they are mainly built around combat. ...but the researchers are so marinated in their pre-conceived stereotyped preconceptions that they seem to be totally blind to reality. I think a lot of this has been so socialised and absolutely marinated in cultural bias, that not only is the entire gaming culture biased against females, but even the research that perpetuates the status quo is equally biased. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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