| 26 JAN 2009 at 11:06pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | We need it. I don't like either Monkey Island or Sam and Max. I love all the wonderful art they can produce for high-end games. However, there's a big difference between good story and good entertainment. I'm not sure a lot of game critics know the difference. Rarely, does a game come along that produces both.
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| 27 JAN 2009 at 9:38am |
TinoIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 26 JAN 2009
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Maybe I haven't sampled enough high end games I started playing the Experiment but found it very boring. I am currently playing the Last Express which was recommended by JA. The graphics and game play are okay but there is no humour or care put into the game.
Tinofski Rules OK!!!!!!!!
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| 27 JAN 2009 at 11:52am |
An_InklingSpace Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 JUN 2008
Status : Online | You can dislike The Last Express (though I'd have to question your taste ), but to say it has no "care" put into it is crazy. The plot is well put together, the dialogue well written and voiced, even with 4-5 different languages. The art style is wonderfully evocative of the period and still stands up today, despite being over 10 years old.
The game does have some humour, but certainly not of the LA kind, it's more of a thriller than a comedy. Personally, I rate it as significantly better than Sam and Max, and better than most, possibly all of the LA games. It has a bit more depth to it and is more adventerous in gameplay and design. Anyway, as I said, perfectly fine with someone having a different opinion, I don't expect us all to like the same type of games, but had to challenge the "no care" comment. The Last Express is definitely a game put together with an attention to detail.
Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i])
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| 28 JAN 2009 at 7:02am |
ArkadiaPrivate Detective
Posts : 558
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | I'm going to have to come to The Last Express's defense too. You do not need humour to make a great game, in my opinion.
And as for care, as An_Inkling said, I don't think saying it had no care put into it is justified. It was a very intricate and well developed story, with lovely graphics, script-writing and voice-acting. I've always thought the game was a shining example of what a good adventure can be. I've played all the LucasArts adventures except for Full Throttle and Zak McKraken (I'm working on obtaining them), and honestly I think I like The Last Express better than all of them - though I did enjoy every one of the LA games I've played quite a lot. Grim Fandango might challenge it though - I haven't played that one all the way through.
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| 28 JAN 2009 at 1:08pm |
TinoIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 26 JAN 2009
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I have continued with the Last Express and am enjoying it. Perhaps if I were playing this game with a spec of PC that matches the time, it might not seem so jerky.
I may retract the 'no care' comment at a later date. I consider myself a openminded person so am not stuck in the groove whereby all LA games are the corner stone for all other games to be justified.
With regards to Full Throttle yes you must get it. It is in my top 5 games of all time.
Tinofski Rules OK!!!!!!!!
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| 28 JAN 2009 at 1:10pm |
TinoIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 26 JAN 2009
Location: UK
Status : Offline | In order to play Grim Fandango I resurrected one of my old PC's and installed win 98 to sample GF in all it's original glory.
Dedication to the cause or what.
Tinofski Rules OK!!!!!!!!
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| 28 JAN 2009 at 1:27pm |
DangerousDaveIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 54
Joined: 31 MAR 2008
Status : Online | The Last Express is great. Not sure what you mean by jerky, you know its supposed to be like that right?
I agree though, the original LucasArts games are probably the best of the best. The only games of similiar ilk that I have played and would rate with them are Sanitarium and the aformentioned TLE.
Didn't like Grim Fandango much though..must be the only person on the planet who didn't.
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| 28 JAN 2009 at 11:39pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | I didn't like Grim Fandango either....and I tried it a half-dozen times because I love noirish games. Cartoons just don't do it for me. Although I must say the screenies of Last Express looking intriguing.
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| 29 JAN 2009 at 12:00am |
An_InklingSpace Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 JUN 2008
Status : Online | For anyone interested in, but unsure about TLE, there are plenty of youtube videos around, including a full play through. Viewing a couple of these should be enough to decide whether it's something you'd want to play.
Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i])
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| 30 JAN 2009 at 3:56pm |
ArkadiaPrivate Detective
Posts : 558
Joined: 1 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By DangerousDave (28 JAN 2009 1:26pm)
The Last Express is great. Not sure what you mean by jerky, you know its supposed to be like that right?
I agree though, the original LucasArts games are probably the best of the best. The only games of similiar ilk that I have played and would rate with them are Sanitarium and the aformentioned TLE.
Didn't like Grim Fandango much though..must be the only person on the planet who didn't.
I've started Grim Fandango three different times and literally just stopped playing because I couldn't stand the controls. I'm usually a trooper when it comes to things like that, too.
But after forcing myself all the way through Dead Reefs and not tearing my own brains out, I've decided to give Grim Fandango yet another go. I would love to enjoy to be able to enjoy the game as so many others have!
I forgot to agree with the original post though - I'm really not at all a graphics fan, especially in regards to it being a tradeoff for gameplay or story. I would have been extremely happy if we'd stayed in the era of FMV and cartoon graphics (I adored the LSL7 and KQ:VI graphics). I was horrified by the Runaway graphics when the game came out (still don't like them at all). The Longest Journey, I must admit, benefitted immensely from the high-tech (for its time... I think?) graphics though.
I still favor playing the older adventure games to the ones we have nowadays. Though I'm sure many here are the same way
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 9:45am |
An_InklingSpace Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 JUN 2008
Status : Online | The complaint about GF's controls seems a common one on these boards. I'd be interested to know what problem you are having with them. I haven't played the game in almost 10 years, but cannot recall any frustration over the controls, or even anything noteworthily different about them.
Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i])
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 12:11pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By An_Inkling (31 JAN 2009 9:45am)
The complaint about GF's controls seems a common one on these boards. I'd be interested to know what problem you are having with them. I haven't played the game in almost 10 years, but cannot recall any frustration over the controls, or even anything noteworthily different about them.
Well, in my game, my character would be looking the wrong way, and I'd struggle to get him to turn around. Also, he would be invisible at times, or only partly visible, causing a very eerie see-through effect. At other times, the game would get "stuck" in a piece of dialogue, or my character would literally get "stuck" and I'd be unable to move him, and so on.
I was very keen to play this game myself, but I also gave up at some point, because of the above. I've always been meaning to pick it up sometime and make it work, though, - stubborn piece of work that I am... :
EDIT: Hey, I've just had a thought: can one play GF with a gamepad?
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 1:38pm |
LonelyMindSpace Cadet
Posts : 176
Joined: 26 AUG 2003
Location: SE
Status : Offline | GF was, as I remember it, made to be played with a gamepad (probably due to consoles getting more common?).
I played it with a gamepad at the time and had no problem with the controls at all. At least that is how I remember it. Time flies...
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 2:21pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By LonelyMind (31 JAN 2009 1:37pm)
GF was, as I remember it, made to be played with a gamepad (probably due to consoles getting more common?).
I played it with a gamepad at the time and had no problem with the controls at all. At least that is how I remember it. Time flies...
Aha! That might be part of the explanation, then! Now I'm quite eager to try the game out with a gamepad. I do seem to remember a few other little probs in getting it going with modern hard and software, but nothing insurmountable, i don't think.
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 5:46pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Anyone who gives up on GF is missing out on a terrific experience. It's a true benchmark in the history of our favourite genre - it has everything, and all is done perfectly. Yes, the controls aren't the best, and it would have been nice to have had the option to point and click, but nevertheless they can't diminish from the intricate plot, the superbly professional acting provided to the engrossing characters, the awesome noir-deco atmosphere and the unforgettable puzzles in all their clever and fantastical logic glory. All of this is based on a wonderful, imaginative concept and premise.
Play it.
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 8:42pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | For me, TC, I can't get past the cartoon elements and characters in GF. I need more reality in my fantasy There are plenty of good stories and well-done productions out there in books, films, stage, TV, and games that are not someone's cup of tea.
I don't recall having major control issues in the few times I tried the game.
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 9:04pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TAS (31 JAN 2009 8:41pm)
For me, TC, I can't get past the cartoon elements and characters in GF. I need more reality in my fantasy There are plenty of good stories and well-done productions out there in books, films, stage, TV, and games that are not someone's cup of tea.
I don't recall having major control issues in the few times I tried the game.
I used to be the same. There was a time when I even shunned Lucas Arts! Until someone opened my eyes to the fact that cartoon premises can be just as appealing as more realistic ones, often offering more creativity and a higher level of sophistication. You just need to embrace them objectively, without prejudice (I seem to be using that word quite a lot lately).
Oh well. I'm the type of guy who's open to everything, and that includes everything. I'm restless whenever I dismiss something purely on superficial grounds, and so I can't really give up on anything.
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 9:10pm |
| Deleted User | Yeah, I think that cartoon art is like all stylized art, an acquired taste. Once the taste is acquired, one realises it's a medium that it offers a lot more scope for expression.
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 9:51pm |
LonelyMindSpace Cadet
Posts : 176
Joined: 26 AUG 2003
Location: SE
Status : Offline | It's just like Roquefort, Gorgonzola and other strange cheeses which I couldn't stand when young. Nowadays, with a nice Zinfandel, Syrah or Cabernet and some good crackers.....hmmmmm, irrestitable. 8-)
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| 31 JAN 2009 at 10:00pm |
An_InklingSpace Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 JUN 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (31 JAN 2009 12:11pm)
Originally Posted By An_Inkling (31 JAN 2009 9:45am)
The complaint about GF's controls seems a common one on these boards. I'd be interested to know what problem you are having with them. I haven't played the game in almost 10 years, but cannot recall any frustration over the controls, or even anything noteworthily different about them.
Well, in my game, my character would be looking the wrong way, and I'd struggle to get him to turn around. Also, he would be invisible at times, or only partly visible, causing a very eerie see-through effect. At other times, the game would get "stuck" in a piece of dialogue, or my character would literally get "stuck" and I'd be unable to move him, and so on.
Some of those sound like bugs.
You have reminded me that Manny would look in the direction of interactable objects. And I do seem to recall the controls being a little inprecise, particularly on the zoomed out view when you're driving in Glotis' car. I think I might replay this game soon, it seems I've forgotten enough for it to be relatively fresh.
Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i])
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| 1 FEB 2009 at 4:38am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | I've been through my cartoon stage. Being a cartoon has nothing to do with premise, or quality, or open-mindedness. No one likes everything, and if they do, they are not open-minded, they are married
I just know what I most enjoy at this stage of my life. I just can't suspend disbelief anymore in a game with cartoon buddies. I don't want representations of humans, I want humans I guess I've become more specific in my preferences for adventure games. I want real escape.
See, I see adventure games as a personal investment on my part. A choice, an experience, an emotional risk and reward. That is very different than sitting down and enjoying Sponge Bob or Futurama or Family Guy. "I" am not vested in those story. In adventure games, I am.
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| 1 FEB 2009 at 1:46pm |
An_InklingSpace Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 JUN 2008
Status : Online | ^^I find it difficult to understand such a strong aversion. You're telling me that no matter how brilliant the content of a game, movie or tv show, if it's presented as animation (or is it just a specific kind of cartoon?), you're not interested? I can see the importance of the visual aspect of such media, but do not see how it is so strongly overriding as to negate all others.
You say you cannot connect with cartoon characters, what about Bambi? Everyone connects with Bambi . Anyway, most AGs that employ an animated visual style are of the light comedy variety, and don't really call for much emotional attachment. Finally, animation does not have to be of the bright, kiddie variety. Even when it is, a film like Animal Farm can still deal with more serious themes. The recent animated documentary, Waltz for Bashir is one of the most affecting films I've seen in some time, dealing with war and its effects on those who fight in it in a way not possible with live action.
I don't really know what the point of my post is. We're all entitled to our views and personal biases. Just a little taken aback at the seemingly black and white dismissal of a perfectly valid way to tell a story. Oh well, each to his own, I suppose.
Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i])
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| 1 FEB 2009 at 3:34pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Nice example Inkling! It so happens that I'm an Israeli, and the film you mentioned was made in Israel, so to speak! It deals with an extremely painful subject in the Israeli discourse, and therefore many Israelis seem to push it aside, sweeping it under the carpet, unfortunately. I have to say I'm very proud of its many achievements and international accolades - not something so common with Israeli films, sadly (I've yet to watch it myself, btw, though I really want to).
As for the topic - I can't stress enough how misguided it is to deem Grim Fandango as just another juvenile, slapstick Sunday cartoon for kids. It (and many other animated cartoons) deals with such mature themes - life, death, love, friendship, sexuality, corruption, greed etc, that categorising it as merely children's entertainment is beyond me. The characters are in fact very human, but what makes them so fascinating is the fact that they're at a different stage in life from ours - that is to say, beyond life! What can be more imaginative and original than this? But it's not just the concept - it's mainly the execution. The writing is simply superb, period.
I can't say much more other than recommend it a billion times over.
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| 2 FEB 2009 at 2:58am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Inkling, you should read a little closer. In fact, you might want to really work on that. I'm only talking about cartoon adventure games, not books and films, as I have said. No, I don't enjoy cartoony in adventure games in general. I am, in fact, a cartoon writer, humorist and novelist. I love cartoons. Some of the best stories in film and literature have been cartoons or illustrated or animated. We all know that. We all have cried over Bambi and guffawed at Sponge Bob.
But in adventure games only...are you reading??...I want real, identifiable fantasy and adventure. I want Myst and Sherlock and TLJ and Syberia, etc. I'm not commenting on what YOU want, this is what I prefer, Ink.
I've tried GF a number of times, as well as Vampyre Story and a host of others, but I can't get over the goofy faces or lame looks. This is my taste in this genre. I am also a trained Shakespearean actor, but I would pass on a ticket to see clowns perform Hamlet. (Well, maybe not...but you get the analogy )
Why must I love the games you love? Don't you have an inkling?
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