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| 23 JUN 2008 at 10:49pm | |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice  Posts : 241 Joined: 24 AUG 2006 Status : Offline | I mainly read reviews to learn the mechanics (perspective, control, etc.) and sub-genre (action, puzzles, etc.) of a game. Reviewers' opinions count very little to me as they're often at odds with the way I feel about a game. When a reviewer gushes over a game (Culpa I wasn't that excited about it), Broken Sword 3, Dreamfall, Indigo Prophecy, Experiment (hated them)), I take it with a grain of salt. In fact, lately when I see over-the-top reviews, I'll wait to see what the forums have to say about them before wasting money (like I did on the above-mentioned games). I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike |
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| 23 JUN 2008 at 11:38pm | |
shadow9d9Sorcerer ApprenticePosts : 295 Joined: 17 JUN 2006 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By antler (23 JUN 2008 7:39pm)Originally Posted By Cultura (23 JUN 2008 1:42pm)I think we need a sticky saying "Reviews are subjective!", because I find that every second person feels the need to explain this concept to us. I disagree. Reviews are not supposed to be just raw opinions of whether they like the game. They should include a critical look at the game and acknowledge the flaws. Reviews are meant to give an indication to readers. If you want to just post an opinion fluff piece gushing over something, it shouldn't be on a review board, it should be on a blog. IMO. A game that has you interviewing people, putting your character to sleep, dressing them up, picking up shoes and a dress to interview some more, and have 1-2 puzzles in 7 hours of gaming time should never in a billion years even be CONSIDERED an "A+". Sure, she may LOVE the game, but you still need to be critical. I am at my MOST critical with things I love. For example, although Battlestar Galactica is my 2nd favorite tv show of all time, after every episode I talk to my wife about what I thought the episode lack, including any plotholes or missed opportunities, etc. A ton of people, when they love something, do the opposite, and make excuses/ignore flaws because they are so in love with it. That is fine, but it shouldn't take place in what is a space used to give other people information that they will use to judge whether the game is right for them. As I quoted above, the puzzles were gushed over and declared fantastic. Yet in 7+ hours, I encountered a grand total of 1-2 puzzles that required more than .5 of a second's thought... I mean, come on... I understand if it was borderline, but this was just WAYYY off. Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset! |
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 12:32am | |
Jenny100Guild Master  Posts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (23 JUN 2008 11:38pm) I think you've mistaken Aya's gender. He is not a she. |
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 5:27am | |
antlerIntergalactic Janitor  Posts : 51 Joined: 28 NOV 2007 Status : Online | I disagree. Reviews are not supposed to be just raw opinions of whether they like the game. They should include a critical look at the game and acknowledge the flaws. Reviews are meant to give an indication to readers. If you want to just post an opinion fluff piece gushing over something, it shouldn't be on a review board, it should be on a blog. IMO. A game that has you interviewing people, putting your character to sleep, dressing them up, picking up shoes and a dress to interview some more, and have 1-2 puzzles in 7 hours of gaming time should never in a billion years even be CONSIDERED an "A+". Sure, she may LOVE the game, but you still need to be critical. A ton of people, when they love something, do the opposite, and make excuses/ignore flaws because they are so in love with it. That is fine, but it shouldn't take place in what is a space used to give other people information that they will use to judge whether the game is right for them. As I quoted above, the puzzles were gushed over and declared fantastic. Yet in 7+ hours, I encountered a grand total of 1-2 puzzles that required more than .5 of a second's thought... I mean, come on... I understand if it was borderline, but this was just WAYYY off. About putting the player to sleep with interviews, changing clothes etc. If you read the review you will see where Aya discussed in detail the nature of the game. He warned you that if you dislike long dialog you will hate this game. How could you have missed that? Reviews are not supposed to be just raw opinions of whether they like the game. They should include a critical look at the game and acknowledge the flaws. Reviews are meant to give an indication to readers. Are you saying you read this review and did not glean how this game played from the in depth detail which gave a clear picture of what to expect in the game? There is an awful lot of information in there. How could you not know what to expect? They should include a critical look at the game and acknowledge the flaws. Aya discussed at length some flaws in the sound track, some flaws in a few character's voice acting. . He mentioned a couple of bugs in a few puzzles and there was a need for a patch. He spoke about a bug where in one scene the character walked backwards, a bug that effected the scoring system. He told you there was no ability to save during cut scenes and thought that was a handicap. Yet in 7+ hours, I encountered a grand total of 1-2 puzzles that required more than .5 of a second's thought. I suspect you are exaggerating on that one. Spoiler AlertYou knew that you needed to open a woman's makeup kit use the hand lotion to spread on the plaque and then go back into the makeup kit get the cotton balls to rub the lotion in so you could scan the revealed image? Most guys are clueless when it comes to woman's makeup kits The puzzles in this game were quite unique and were not out of step with what you find in average games today. There were several that were quite unique. The issue is not Aya's preference of the game as his review told you everything you needed to know, if you bothered to read it. The issue is he gave it an A+ which places it in elevated company and you did not like the game. Aya in fact gave a detailed review which included everything you needed to know to understand what the game was about. Yes he gave his opinion, what reviewer omits that? He is entitled to his opinion. |
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 7:35am | |
CulturaJourneyman Posts : 1337 Joined: 1 SEP 2004 Location: NL, Amersfoort Status : Offline | I'm not saying that Aya (or any other reviewer) should change the review, but (re)consider his/her opinion. So as to take that on board for any next review. |
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 12:27pm | |
shadow9d9Sorcerer ApprenticePosts : 295 Joined: 17 JUN 2006 Status : Offline | "The puzzles in this game were quite unique and were not out of step with what you find in average games today. There were several that were quite unique. The issue is not Aya's preference of the game as his review told you everything you needed to know, if you bothered to read it. The issue is he gave it an A+ which places it in elevated company and you did not like the game. Aya in fact gave a detailed review which included everything you needed to know to understand what the game was about. Yes he gave his opinion, what reviewer omits that? He is entitled to his opinion." Sorry, but did you even read my post or this thread? You ignored my whole point which was that if you review a game, even if you like it, you need to be able to stop the gushing from keeping you from being critical! "The puzzles are evenly spread out throughout the game " Where were these puzzles? I played for hour stretches at a time with nothing even borderlining an actual puzzle! "In the puzzle department Culpa Innata truly excels. Just like with the story, its puzzles are among the highest standards I’ve seen in the recent history of adventure games. Forget the simplicity you’ve been so used to recently. " - Half of the "puzzles" that I guess Aya was referring to involves being stuck in a room with 2 hotspots, with one revealing the solution to the other! I don't even consider them puzzles because they are laughable and require no brain power. And that includes your example above... you think using her makeup book to reveal something is unique? If you've watched even 1 detective based movie/tv show/book/comic in your entire life, it'd be the first thing you'd think of! I'm sorry but having 1-2 "puzzles" every few hours MAY be "evenly spread throughout the game" technically, but that is incredibly misleading. I quoted puzzles because having a book with a name on it and a computer needing a password as the only 2 hotspots in an entire location doesn't require any brainpower to figure that the password might have something to do with the book. The puzzles are pathetic. There is nothing critical about the game in the review. That is the problem, not the opinion. As far as I'm concerned, Culpa Innata is not a game, it is a very poor interactive mystery book. As I said and you ignored- "A ton of people, when they love something, do the opposite, and make excuses/ignore flaws because they are so in love with it. That is fine, but it shouldn't take place in what is a space used to give other people information that they will use to judge whether the game is right for them." The review was very poor because it wasn't critical about a single thing, and exaggerated others to give the impression of a perfect game, A+. The puzzle comments were the worst exaggeration. "In the puzzle department Culpa Innata truly excels." WTF! There ARE NO PUZZLES!(essentially). Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset! |
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 1:41pm | |
An_InklingSpace Cadet  Posts : 171 Joined: 20 JUN 2008 Status : Online | Originally Posted By JKing (21 JUN 2008 2:14am)Originally Posted By An_Inkling (21 JUN 2008 2:02am)Originally Posted By antler (20 JUN 2008 7:47pm) Dealing with the last part of your post first - my post above says nothing about Phoenix's acceptance of World Union propaganda, just the disconnect between her complete acceptance and the player's knowledge that all is not as perfect as it seems (or at least questioning the WU's magnanimity). This causes Phoenix's journey towards a questioning of the WU to fall flat. My issue is not that Phoenix should have been questioning the Union from the start (though there is a bit of that, later on), it's that if she were not, then the player should not have been given the information to do so either. That way we could more closely relate to her journey. You've listed some of the elements that led me to question the perfection of the World Union from the very start, and this is all I'm talking about, I'm not saying I knew from the start that there was some great evil behind the scenes, though I considered it possible. The following aspects he me questioning the Union from the very beginning: - renovators prologue (the most obvious) - the society is built on what we'd consider bad principles: seflishness is good, a person's value measured by a number largely related to how much they consume. This suggested to me a surface contentment, with deep trouble beneath the surface. - world presented as too perfect (the dystopian utopia thing is a very popular story device) Just after the beginning we have the man running through the gate and the conversations with the janitor, both hinting at something outside the Union's understanding or control, seeming very much like an underground movement (the janitor's comments particularly allude to this). We also learn quite early that Phoenix is not really that happy in this supposed utopia. Her friend suggests shopping as a remedy, others seem to find mood modification drugs the way to go (can't recall when we first learn of this). At this point the setting reminded me strongly of Fahrenheit 451, very superficial with a strong focus on consumerism, shallow entertainment and quick wish fulfillment, and very little on more intellectual pursuits. The citizens seem happy enough, but it is largely a facade. Later we learn quite a bit more, particularly from the stylist and the military. Also, the final thing is Phoenix's name. As in so many stories, it seems the name Phoenix has been chosen as a harbinger of renewal (hence, obviously hinting that all is not well). Given the transparent name selection, I had this in mind almost from the very beginning. Part of my first impressions posted on another site: The world is well realised and detailed, if a little cliched. The PC lives in a utopia where all society's problems have been solved, no crime, unemployment, disease etc, apparently by embracing the self (selfishness is seen as good). This New World Order encompasses most of the globe, those which still cling to the idea of "nation states" are labelled as Rogue nations, and are continually at war with each other. However, it seems obvious that all is not well in utopia, and I'm expecting a twist along those lines. I just feel the developers could have been more subtle in their presentation of much of this information, allowing us to more easily buy into Phoenix's journey. Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i]) |
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 8:29pm | |
loobilooPrivate Detective  Posts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | I thought this was a superb game worthy of the rating here on JA. It had a great story with a beginning, middle & end which I thought had enough challenging elements as well as some subtle observation of personalities which although seeming 'stereotypical' fitted perfectly into the concept of the game world. This is one of the few games I've played where the idea of non-linear gameplay has truly been pushed forward, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of anything else that I've played that has achieved this to the same extent. I don't usually like subplots but in this case apparently you can get through the game without the one in this one which you may be left wondering about if you do come across it! But, the main plot is resolved satisfactorily & therefore the game, in my mind, can be counted amongst those that have a clear & satisfactory ending which I personally found a sheer joy! As for it being an 'interactive story' - so it is! Who says that an AG has to have a zillion puzzles in it, inventory or otherwise, to make it a valid game? If that's what you want - go play Nancy Drew, Legend of the Crystal Skull!!!! Or even better - sign up to a casual game site & download puzzles galore & forget about story altogether!!! This game presents you with a story which is challenging to unravel one way or another, I found it refreshing, innotative & extremely well thought out. It obviously doesn't appeal to everyone but I for one admire what the developers have achieved here. I just think it's a real shame when developers do try to advance the genre they get so much crap for it! |
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| 24 JUN 2008 at 11:39pm | |
An_InklingSpace CadetPosts : 171 Joined: 20 JUN 2008 Status : Online | Originally Posted By loobiloo (24 JUN 2008 8:29pm) I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on the game, but could you elaborate on this view? I found the non-linear aspects to be rather minimal. This is apart from the one major puzzle that can be missed, though I disagree that this was a good thing. The main plot, for me, ended so unsatisfactorally, with so little involvement from the player, that without this major puzzle, my experience would have been even more disappointing than it was. I will add that I do not think the game was terrible. It's a solid game with a good background setting (its best aspect, though rather cliched and obvious, it also did not gel with the story as much as it could have, more detail in my previous post), the dialogue is good enough, despite the sometimes wooden voice-acting, unbearable and redundant friend chats and over the top reactions of Phoenix. The puzzles were decent in execution and in number. The story is again, decent, but quite disappointing. I was expecting it to pick up, and given that I knew there was some underground movement, I had thought the uninspiring investigation play would only be a small part of the game (something like TLJ), but it was not, the whole game pretty much consisted of the investigation. This fell flat given that the player had little scope for thinking about possible culprits given the lack of info, instead, having to wait for the final plot piece to fall into place, for what was for me a disappointing ending. For my tastes the dialogue/puzzle/exploration ratios are too heavily weighted in dialogue. I love lots of dialogue, but a game where all you do is listen to dialogue with little player input, is not much of a game, it's a non-interactive story. This is not quite the case in CI, but it does approach it, the number of puzzles is fairly low, the degree of dialogue interactivity very small, and there is almost no exploration. I can see how others could enjoy this game, I enjoyed much of it myself. I do not see how it could be rated an A+ (though I am not particularly bothered by the review score), as I don't think it does anything to the highest standard of the genre. For me, it was a good middle of the road adventure, possibly just above that. I just think it's a real shame when developers do try to advance the genre they get so much crap for it! I find this comment disappointing. I do not see CI as advancing the genre, it's a pretty stock-standard kind of game. If you're referring to the non-linearity as an advancement, I'd agree that it would be good if more AGs had a good level of this, I disagree that CI has it, and disagree that it would be much of an advancement, as it has been done before (particularly in Blade Runner, a game which was obviously a strong influence on CI). Just because someone disagrees with you on a game does not mean they are short sighted, or blinded by prejudice. Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i]) |
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 12:57am | |
shadow9d9Sorcerer ApprenticePosts : 295 Joined: 17 JUN 2006 Status : Offline | "As for it being an 'interactive story' - so it is! Who says that an AG has to have a zillion puzzles in it, inventory or otherwise, to make it a valid game?" Doesn't need to have a zillion. But it doesn't need to have 2-3 in 7 hours either... If you leave out the puzzles and just go for dialogue clicking and telling your character to go to another screen for more dialogue, and then clicking the character to bed, and then repeat.. there is not much of an actual game in there. It advanced the genre? If so, it is advancing to a place I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. Adventure games are puzzle games... Sorry, but it is true. They are often inside of and incorporated into a story, but they involve puzzles. I might as well read a good book or watch a good show if I want a good story... Why would I want to pay $40 to click through dialogue and put my character to sleep and to the store to pick up a dress and shoes when I could get a book for $3 on half.com that blows away the pathetic story in CI? Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset! |
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 11:56am | |
ElfstoneGuild MasterPosts : 5892 Joined: 4 NOV 2002 Status : Online | Originally Posted By loobiloo (23 JUN 2008 6:20pm)Originally Posted By Elfstone (22 JUN 2008 10:33pm) There is even more difference to a C or D or maybe F. All of those grades have probably been attributed to CI. But I'd say A and F must be based on personal preference. I have no issue with CI's idea of gameplay. Just with the way it ends up fulfilling this outline. The only reason I asked you to name more recent games was that I was more likely to have played them & therefore better able, out of my curiosity, gauge the difference if that makes sense! Otherwise I'm very aware that there are many superb games you could have listed pre my game playing years! Oh! I see. Hehe. Well, I pretty much told you about all recent games I played. So I guess what I am saying is that CI is the worst game I played in the last two years.
My pleasure. [b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&&all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House |
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 12:02pm | |
ElfstoneGuild MasterPosts : 5892 Joined: 4 NOV 2002 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (24 JUN 2008 12:32am)Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (23 JUN 2008 11:38pm) Popular mistake. Same I made when I joined. Although, when it comes to anime/manga (I know she's from Paradise Eve, but same style), it's entirely possible that a character looking like the one in Aya's avatar is NOT female. On topic: I see shadow's point. The review could make you think that there are a lot more puzzles in the game than it is the case. Except for the Le Serpent Rouge type puzzle, I don't see that much pushing the boundary, either. But I think there is no need for Aya to change anything. After all there are 2 CI reviews on JA+. It just so happens that the other one is very positive, as well. Personally, I was surprised to find CI so very different from Aya's view, because we are often of one mind about games. Not all the time, though. I don't get tired to mention Aura. While Aya hates the Myst games, he likes Aura. Never got why. In my opinion Aura is hundred times less lively and well-executed than any of those, while stealing just about EVERYTHING from them, right down to the artwork. That means, I know my chance to dislike a game Aya recommends is about 10%, I'd say. Same goes for music, by the way. Maybe it's a little higher there (electro dance music? uuh...). I'm not blaming him, if you get the impression. He warns about some aspects of the game you could find repetitive or maybe not like at all. But I knew that I generally like that subgenre. CI just fell short a bit. [b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&&all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House |
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 12:16pm | |
shadow9d9Sorcerer ApprenticePosts : 295 Joined: 17 JUN 2006 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Elfstone (25 JUN 2008 12:02pm)Originally Posted By Jenny100 (24 JUN 2008 12:32am)Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (23 JUN 2008 11:38pm) I actually tried to keep the gender neutral, because I wasn't sure.. but it must have slipped out anyhow... oh well. Now I know. Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset! |
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 12:43pm | |
ElfstoneGuild MasterPosts : 5892 Joined: 4 NOV 2002 Status : Online | Originally Posted By loobiloo (24 JUN 2008 8:29pm) That's one reason it didn't work for me. I knew too much, Phoenix wised up too little. Then - and that is my own problem, most likely - the end was very different from what I expected. This is one of the few games I've played where the idea of non-linear gameplay has truly been pushed forward, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of anything else that I've played that has achieved this to the same extent. Alright, how far back am I allowed to go for suggestions? Apart from most Kheops games, I'd have to go back a couple years...I find non-linear games are a dying breed. Which is very unfortunate. There is nothing more frustrating than getting stuck in a linear game...repeatedly. Some non-linear gems I can think of: Discworld, Discworld 2, Toonstruck, Monkey Island games (all of them), ...you know, all those classics. I envy you, because you have all those titles ahead of you! Although my memory is bad enough to replay some of those... CI is non-linear in terms of the world map somewhat, but the locations are linear. I can't recall the need for using an item in a place different from where you found it. Also, I didn't feel like I had a choice in most places. It was either the right discussion or a lot of small talk. The big puzzle follows you along almost the entire game, but I took in-game weeks to get the ball rolling. Which is why I can't properly evaluate the effect it has on (non)linearity. I don't usually like subplots but in this case apparently you can get through the game without the one in this one which you may be left wondering about if you do come across it! But, the main plot is resolved satisfactorily & therefore the game, in my mind, can be counted amongst those that have a clear & satisfactory ending which I personally found a sheer joy! Not sure, but I think you need to visit the underground to finish the game? Sorry, can't remember details of the plot. But if you don't have to find out about renovators it certainly explains why the ending completely ignores them. As for it being an 'interactive story' - so it is! Who says that an AG has to have a zillion puzzles in it, inventory or otherwise, to make it a valid game? If that's what you want - go play Nancy Drew, Legend of the Crystal Skull!!!! Or even better - sign up to a casual game site & download puzzles galore & forget about story altogether!!! Like shadow already responded, nobody demanded "zillions" of puzzles. Just quoting for completion's sake. This game presents you with a story which is challenging to unravel one way or another, I found it refreshing, innotative & extremely well thought out. It obviously doesn't appeal to everyone but I for one admire what the developers have achieved here. I have to say, the idea behind the story is hardly original. Utopia of the future, the savior is about to discover her place...or not, I should say. Borrowed from fiction, based on our world and placed in our potential future. All of this isn't even kept secret from the start. Which might be a good thing, because if you played/watched/read media with content like this, you will be very quick to tell what is ahead. However, the parts I enjoyed most, do revolve around this concept. The documents are well done. The charta and all that stuff, I mean. All which you can read in the HQ. This is all in the beginning and raised my hopes for an engaging story. Once outside I realised the mechanics of the game. Then I got bored. Finally, the story seemed to reach the boiling point...and with no fanfare at all, it was finished. I feel like the subplot was dangled in front of me on a string, then pulled back before I could take a bite. Meh. I just think it's a real shame when developers do try to advance the genre they get so much crap for it! There should be criticism. If developers or other people can't take it, we won't be able to separate between "good" and "bad" advance. And like many have said, CI was generally well-received. Perhaps it didn't get enough crap. I don't dislike it that much for me to say this is true. [b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&&all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House |
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 7:13pm | |
loobilooPrivate DetectivePosts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | I'll be back tomorrow! |
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| 25 JUN 2008 at 7:41pm | |
SirDaveGuild Master Posts : 4941 Joined: 17 OCT 2002 Location: US Status : Offline | IMO, non-linear games are difficult to design well. First of all, there has to be more attention to the navigation system. If it takes a lot of time getting from here to there, the player will soon become frustrated and/or bored. Also, the puzzling -which includes things like learning something from someone way over there that has to do with something way over here- has to be carefully designed so that there is enough logic available to give the player some clue about how that thing or thing said way over there has something to do with that thing or thing said way over here. If neither of these principles are given careful thought in the game design, then I shut the game down rather quickly. I'm not going to traipse all over the place for no good reason or result. Because, to me, a very non-linear game is a bit of a gamble, I tend to like linear games more. It is simply more likely that I won't get frustrated with them. One of my favorites for that reason was Dracula Resurrection. A favorite, relatively non-linear game, that managed to keep my interest because it was IMO designed well was Rhem. Also GK 3 come to think of it. Note that I said relatively non-linear. Both those games were not nearly as non-linear as some others.
The future ain't what it used to be! |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 12:29am | |
MKBSorcerer ApprenticePosts : 241 Joined: 24 AUG 2006 Status : Offline | Someone mentioned, "There is nothing more frustrating than getting stuck in a linear game...repeatedly." The thing I think would be more frustrating would be to get stuck in a non-linear game. The focus for a solution to a hard puzzle in a linear game is much more narrow. So I agree with Sir Dave. In free-range games I find much more frustration in wandering and backtracking to solve a puzzle repeatedly. I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 2:14am | |
Jenny100Guild MasterPosts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline | I don't know if we're all working with the same definition of non-linear. A non-linear game doesn't just give you access to a large part of the gameworld. It also allows you to work on your choice of problems, so you don't have to solve puzzles in a particular sequence. So if one problem has you stumped, you can work on something else. And in the meantime you may think of a solution to the first problem. |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 2:18am | |
An_InklingSpace CadetPosts : 171 Joined: 20 JUN 2008 Status : Online | Firstly, I see Culp Innata as only slightly non-linear. We sometimes get a choice as to interview order, but the maximum choice space is I think 3.Originally Posted By SirDave (25 JUN 2008 7:41pm) Yes, traipsing and placement of clues is a problem in games with non-linear exploration. Some solutions: small game world (The Last Express, added bonus of the world being naturally confined, you are on a train), instant travel between areas (Blade Runner, Culpa Innata), localise puzzles or story elements (probably are AG examples, but will give the example of the RPG Fallout, which localises the consequences of your choices to each town). Originally Posted By SirDave (25 JUN 2008 7:41pm) I see linear games (particularly in the RPG genre - Note I'm not just talking about exploration) as much more of a gamble. This is because you are forced to follow a story in a particular way, perform (ie. puzzles) actions in a particular way. You are given no choice, you are following not driving, the game can become a very passive experience. This is fine if your completely engrossed in the story, love all the characters, and appreciate the puzzle design. However, these reactions are hit and miss, as we've seen with the reaction to Culpa Innata in this thread. Such games also lack replayability. Non-linearity is much more than freedom of exploration, that is the weak form that a number of Adventure games use (like Culpa Innata, where even exploration non-linearity is weak), and RPGs like Oblivion and Morrowind have in spades. All you are choosing in these games is the order in which you do things. What all of these games lack is what I see as the more important form of non-linearity, that is in how you do things, and in story progression. Very few AGs have this form of non-linearity (Culpa Innata does not), and those that do (eg. Blade Runner, The Longest Journey, Discworld Noir) only have a weak form of it. This form of non-linearity means that you can solve problems in different ways, choose who you side with etc, thereby affecting the course of a "quest" or sub-plot, main story, or even just how others view you. This gives the player much greater agency and gives him/her the feeling that they are really part of these events, not just watching a story play out. Now, for me this form of non-linearity, or the closely related notion of "choice and consequence" is critically important to an RPG (though unfortunately largely absent from modern games of the genre), but I also think it could strengthen AGs. Blade Runner made an attempt at it with its multiple endings, though unfortunately most of these ending choices came near the end of the game, it did also have some local choices with some small consequences. An example from The Last Express shows the strength of this type of gameplay: early in the game you find a body in your train compartment, you have two choices on how to deal with it - you can throw it out of the window (timing important here also), or hide it under your bed. These choices have different consequences, one which can end the game. Again, this is a fairly weak example, but it does show how when you have multipe options to do something, with different consequences, you are drawn further into the game and almost think as the character - "What will be the consequence of this action? Is it the best solution?". Looking at games like Fallout or Arcanum (the two games I'd rate most highly for this form of non-linearity), and every problem has several possible solutions, usually with different consequences. This means you are always looking for different ways to do things and thinking about what the consequencs may be. In terms of main story malleability, Fallout is above any other game. The main quest of this game can be entirely summed up as "find the water chip, deal with The Master", don't worry about what that actually means. To complete this main quest you are forced into one or two conversations and only one action (as finding the water chip ends up being optional), how you get to The Master, how you find the water chip or even if you do is all up to the player. The choices you make along the way are important for the future of each town you come across, and the consequences of these choices are explained in the game's ending. You can find out more about the world and the main plot through your own exploration, but it is not forced down your throat in a linear manner like most games. Despite this minimalism, the main story is still compelling, and the story you make for your character is equally so. Well I'm out of space. In short, non-linearity is about more than just exploration. Who is this great burdensome slavering dog-thing that mediocres my every thought? ([i]Nick Cave - We Call Upon the Author[/i]) |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 2:41pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . That's why I love RPGs too An_Inkling. They allow you to make thousands of choices from beginning to end that impact your main character's abilities, your party, and how a huge array of quests are completed, including in which order. The best RPGs also have large, diverse game world's fulll of interesting places, NPCs, secrets to find, hidden areas to discover, optional side quests to do, and optional factions to join. The elite RPG titles also have compelling original stories, great artwork, wonderful dialog / voice acting / music, and lots of player options for sliding difficulty levels, AI behavior scripts, pathfinding nodes, extra audio / video FX, complete technical adjustments, feedback depth / speed, etc. Most also have built-in world and area maps plus multi-section journals with player notation features, flexible inventory systems, programmable hotkeys, quick action slots, customizable character models and portraits, customizable player voice clips, and much more. More to the point, RPGs allow you to employ every conceivable tactic for solving quests, gaining advantages, and beating enemies in combat - sometimes even through deception or diplomacy. You can also play as a thief and sneak, lockpick, pickpocket, use backstabs, set / disarm traps, etc. Or you can play as a mighty melee warrior, magic user, healer, bard, or a combination of two or more classes - all with the option of being good, evil or neutral. Most classes have multiple schools or specialities too and all of them provide endless possibilities for fine tuning your main character and for trying loads of alternate party combos. Compared to RPGs, all adventure games are extremely linear. Cheers, Terry |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 3:34pm | |
JKingSchattenjger  Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (26 JUN 2008 2:40pm) .... Except Riven I wonder, Terry: though I enjoy most the sorts of adventure games which incorporate a strong element of role-play, I tend not to like computer roleplaying games because they seem to adore getting bogged down in minutiae to the point where it feels like all I'm doing is micromanaging my inventory and getting confused about character parameters. Though I have thoroughly enjoy the Might & Magic games of the early 1990s (viz. Might & Magic III and World of Xeen), I've not really found another computer roleplaying game I can honestly say I truly like. I don't suppose you would have any suggestions? (with apologies for straying [smiley=offtopic.gif]) You can't kill someone in a studio. |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 3:39pm | |
jalexSchattenjger Posts : 2503 Joined: 5 MAR 2003 Status : Offline | I havn't gotten this game yet but I will buy it. It sounds like I will like the puzzles as I would rather have puzzles that I consider too easy than too hard. I don't like being stuck on puzzles for days or even hours. I don't mind long conversations or running around in a game but of course any of these things can be taken to extremes. |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 7:43pm | |
InlandAZGuild Master Posts : 5586 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jalex (26 JUN 2008 3:38pm) So long as you don't rely on captions for those long conversations you might find it enjoyable - I just don't understand why they were omitted. I mean how many of us can actually play in a completely silent room so we don't miss out on the conversation? What? |
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| 26 JUN 2008 at 8:33pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . Originally Posted By JKing (26 JUN 2008 3:33pm) That would depend to a degree on whether you like combat or not. There are several good "Action-RPGs" (for example Diablo 1 & 2) and a few hybrids that combine FPS with RPG components (System Shock 2 and Deus Ex). Additionally, there are a couple semi-action RPGs like Divine Divinity that have more streamlined rules, greater flexibility, and no party system but enough depth to keep traditional CRPG fans interested. Just above Divine Divinity in terms of gameplay complexity (and in a league of it's own) is the all-time great Planescape: Torment, a SP-only RPG with a preset main character, preset party members and simplified AD& rules adapted to BioWare's wonderful Infinity Engine. More to the point is that it's the most atmospheric of them all with a unique setting and a very deep original story that truly drives the game. The game world is also fairly small in comparison to titles like Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, the Icewind Dale series, Fallout 1 & 2, and Neverwinter Nights. Also, Star Wars: KOTOR 1 & 2 are terrific SP-only CRPGs in full 3D with reasonably simple gameplay mechanics including intuitive, turn-based combat and very smooth, simple real-time controls. It also has a number of diverse game worlds but you never feel lost as each is self-contained and you can only access them as the marvelous story unfolds. Another with similar gameplay is Anachronox, which is even more fun IMO as it features a lot more humor and some of the coolest party members ever. However, for classic-style (full D& type) CRPGs, they all have a great deal of character / party / inventory management with lots and lots of stats. That's just the nature of the beast on the PC side. Perhaps you would enjoy some of the less complicated, story-driven console RPGs like the Final Fantasy series. There are some that also merge action-adventure with traditional RPG gameplay. One that was adapted to the PC is Quantic Dream's Omikron: The Nomad Soul, which was equal parts 3D solo RPG, action and adventure. Cheers, Terry |
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| 27 JUN 2008 at 12:30am | |
ElfstoneGuild MasterPosts : 5892 Joined: 4 NOV 2002 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (26 JUN 2008 2:14am) Yes, that is what I meant, at least. And this is far less frustrating to get stuck with for me, personally. Can't solve this one? Go try another one. With a map function and not the slowest walkers in the universe, I'd prefer this. But it has been years I've seen it happen...I think with 3d games, it's getting more complicated, because you get lost. Inkling explained all the various degrees of non-linearity. CI does have exploration one and also the puzzling one, but despite the unified puzzle, rather limited. The games I mentioned have puzzling non-linearity in bunches. The third degree that Inkling mentioned, yeah, that's the peak. I can barely recall any games not yet mentioned. Innocent Until Caught maybe? Blade Runner is a fine example, actually...there are several locations you never get to see if you don't do a couple of things. Sherlock Holmes and the Case of the Serrated Scalpel...there are some parts with decisions in puzzling, but only minor ones. That's the most non-linear detective game I'm aware of, by the way. (I feel like we should use another thread to discuss this, because it's getting off-hand a bit...) Also, various Kheops games allow for alternative item choices. The big issue with this type of supreme non-linearity (although I think there is a different word for this 3rd category?): dead-ends I don't think it's possible to avoid those if you keep your game realistic. I believe Interactive Fiction does have its share of infamous examples. Inland: Headphones are nice. [b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&&all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House |
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