| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:19am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Well, that's another interesting point: what about companies that went out of business? Say, Sanctuary Woods. Can I sell copies of Riddle Of Master Lu? Am I stealing?
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:39am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (13 FEB 2003 2:58am)
..so when the game is out of print and not abdware they'll probably resort to piracy... and this is not more disapproved of than ppl selling used games for 5x the original price... they are both equally condemnable >
Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 12:05am)
if you're referring to the "would i sell a game for $150" i responded that i wouldn't sell my games anyway... now if a nutter came and told me "i give you $500 for that game" i'd do it yes, but that's the exception, not the rule...
Aya, this is exactly where we are in disagreement because your 2 comments above conflict. If you would accept $500 then you are acknowledging the fact that it is your right to get what the game is worth to the buyer. That is not profiteering. Anyway, profiteering, ordinarily only refers to individuals who take advantage of shortages of life necessities eg. food, water etc.
I sort of wish you hadn't combined what are really 2 subjects because I think we are in agreement over the issue of giving/using a copy of an out-of-print game where the publisher no longer exists.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:39am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (14 FEB 2003 12:18am)
Well, that's another interesting point: what about companies that went out of business? Say, Sanctuary Woods. Can I sell copies of Riddle Of Master Lu? Am I stealing?
an even better point! a copy of ROML? imo, no, you're not stealing... are you selling a used original copy of ROML for $200? YES, you ARE stealing (the buyer)!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:45am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (14 FEB 2003 12:38am)
Aya, this is exactly where we are in disagreement because your 2 comments above conflict. If you would accept $500 then you are acknowledging the fact that it is your right to get what the game is worth to the buyer
hey, i'm not a defender of morality you know! my original point was referring to ppl who say "piracy is theft" but "used games isn't" just like a hypnotized mass, without thinking and without taking some important facts into consideration... and i didn't say i'll post an ad saying i'm selling game x for $500... i said if some nutter came to me and offered me $500 i'd take it... and it IS different, cause i wouldn't be selling game x in the first place, so i'm not depriving it from someone who just wants to play it
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:45am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By lakerz (13 FEB 2003 10:28pm)
I forgot to add the fact that you need to add a zero to the price of sitting courtside (next to Jack). $500 will get you close but courtside seats start at $2500, and those are no where near center court.
Well, it just shows how out-of-date I am. I was taking a wild guess based on what I knew when I had access to season seats for the Kings/Lakers from 1992-95. So, putting this in perspective: it will take 20 shrinkwrapped copies of Celtica to get me courtside with 'ole Jack. Forget it- the Lakers are blowing chunks (although Kobe's playing pretty well finally) and I don't like Jack Nicholson anyway.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 6:58pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (14 FEB 2003 12:44am)
... and i didn't say i'll post an ad saying i'm selling game x for $500... i said if some nutter came to me and offered me $500 i'd take it... and it IS different, cause i wouldn't be selling game x in the first place, so i'm not depriving it from someone who just wants to play it
Whether you're not selling the game or whether you're selling it for $500, it's still out of reach for most gamers. So it amounts to the same thing.
Say you post that you'll sell your game for $5.
One person came up and says "I'll take it."
Another comes up and says "I'll give you $20 for it."
Another says "I'll give you $80."
Another says $I'll give you $500 for it."
Which one would you sell it to?
If a seller puts Celtica up on ebay for $10, and the bidding goes up over $100, how is it the fault of the seller?
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 7:33pm |
LagavulinPrivate Detective
Posts : 475
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | :
I know that I started this, but it is beginning to be a bit draged out.
As an answer to the above; If I did not sell to the buyer who is willing to pay the "highest" I should not put out my games (which I dont) on eBay.
Several years ago, Russia for exampel, was a rather tight Communist country. But not even then they would sell things "to the lowest" bidder. I saw "sir Dave´s"I think it was) comment to Aya Brea about the fact that the world in general is not a place were everybody can and will have the same chance to do or buy everything they want to. Its a fact that not even 1 % of the whole world population are interested in Adv Games.
So these remarks that a seller who sells a game to the buyer who is WILLING (NOT FORCED) to buy at a high price is "robbing" the buyer, Is just plain st....
And I am sorry Aya B, just as Sir D said just because you would like to be able to buy, play, or whatever everything it is just not possible.
"_ THE WORLD IS NOT FAIR"
P.S
I am sorry if I sound a bit "heated" but I am at the same time preparing for a trip (tomorrow) to Paris and Eurodisney together with my kids.
Good gaming to you all
FOR THE MOMENT I AM PLAYING ON MY Win 7&&&&Recently Played&& ark Fall Lost Souls,Outcry,SH vs A Lupin,Tales of Monkey Island,Still Life 2,Sinking Island,Pandora Directive (RP),The Lost Crown
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 8:57pm |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | wow.....I don't believe all the different topics that came out in this thread.....first game copying, stamps, collections, books, etc. etc........
Anyways....about people that bid on games (or anything) on ebay....all I can say.....is that if a person 'really' wants something, they will pay for it, no matter how high it goes. Money talks.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 9:07pm |
JA-Staff1Space Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 OCT 2002
Location: 0
Status : Online | Well, this is "hot" enough.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 10:44pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I think we should distinguish between the worth of an adventure game as a game, and it's worth as a collectable.
The game part of its value can be infinitely reproduced, and I personally have no ethical problem with people getting a copy of an unavailable-to-buy game via abandonware or some other source. I do object to people making a profit out of this, however.
The collectable part of its value (ie, the game being in its box with a manual) cannot be reproduced. For a game that's no longer available to buy, this makes the game worth quite a sum to certain buyers. I don't think it's at all wrong for somebody to sell their game at a high price if it has value as a collectable.
The problem comes when the two purposes of getting a game clash. Somebody who simply wants to play Game A for fun might find that Game A's market price is being set by its value as a collectable. Hence Aya's annoyance at the ridiculous price somebody seeking a game simply to play might have to pay when they track one down.
In an ideal world (IMO), abandoned games would be freely downloadable. People who just wanted to play the games could go and get them, whereas people interested in the games as collectables could continue to amass an impressive collection of originals by spending lots of moolah.
Of course, then we come to the 'how do we determine when games are abandoned?' debate...
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 11:34pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Nellie (14 FEB 2003 10:44pm)
I think we should distinguish between the worth of an adventure game as a game, and it's worth as a collectable.
That's what I was trying to point out without much success The fundamental difference between adventure games and other collectibles is that games have intrinsic value and "usefulness" and not everyone regards them as collectibles. The "players" are essentially locked out of the market by the "collectors".
I forgot my sig.
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 2:37am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lagavulin (14 FEB 2003 7:33pm)
"_ THE WORLD IS NOT FAIR"
the most relevant thing said! and i'm not joking... so because the world isn't fair ppl try and find other means to play the games... and you (everyone) know that 99% (i won't say ALL, altough i believe it) of gamers have acquired games using other means... and prices are not fair to the buyer, piracy is not fair to the companies - actually nothing is fair... and yes i would sell my game to the highest bidder, i am NOT a saint... my whole point in the first place was about ppl bi[/black]tching about pirates but accepting 3-digit prices for games hands down
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 2:53am |
adventuredogGuild Master
Posts : 3255
Joined: 14 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | Dear Aya - I am truly one of those people who you imagine don't exist. I have bought all my games directly from distributors or developers. I have even paid for a few Just (Free) Adventures. I would never play any game using a pirated copy. I would only consider buying a used game if it was one that was unavailable new (which so far I have not done. I wish to directly support the game developers whenever possible and feasible.
Would I object to selling any of my games? That's a tough question. So far I haven't even wanted to swap any - not even the dogs (oops! I didn't mean a personal slur against myself :-X)
Still adventuring after all these years!
Patiently awaiting The Last Crown: Haunting of Hallowed Isle, and Bracken Tor...
... and Asylum if it's not tooooo scary...
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 3:00am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By adventuredog (15 FEB 2003 2:53am)
Dear Aya - I am truly one of those people who you imagine don't exist. I have bought all my games directly from distributors or developers. I have even paid for a few Just (Free) Adventures. I would never play any game using a pirated copy. I would only consider buying a used game if it was one that was unavailable new (which so far I have not done. I wish to directly support the game developers whenever possible and feasible.
rephrase... there are ppl who don't get pirate copies of still available games... but i don't think there are a lot who don't get pirate copies of games they want to play which are not available anymore nor are they abdware, and of course they don't want to pay $$$$$$ to buy them used (if they're considered rare that is)... and this of course is perfectly fine, since the companies are NOT damaged
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 3:39am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Thought I'd point out something that hasn't been, but should be mentioned.
Ebay has been criticized for providing the environment that helped lead to prices of some adventure games that allegedly puts them out of reach of some buyers. That's probably true, but just look at how many of some of the truly great adventure games are available on Ebay for a song any time you want them, almost no matter what country you live in. That's a tremendous asset when you consider that the majority of these games are unavailable at local stores. If Ebay didn't exist how could you easily get your hands on Curse of Monkey Island? Maybe some online stores would have it, but just do a Google search and see if you can find it now.
Many games are going for as low as $9.95 (or less if you make a lucky bid). And sure, some classic games in excellent condition (I'm not talking about the Celtica types here) are going regularly for, say, $40, but some of you may be too young to know that in the mid 1990s, it was not unusual for adventure games to retail for $40-60.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 4:00am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | That's true SirDave......about the prices of games back in the '90's to buy brand new. I remember......paying 49.99 plus tax for both of my Gabriel Knight games.
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 7:13am |
lakerzPrivate Detective
Posts : 654
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (14 FEB 2003 11:33pm)
That's what I was trying to point out without much success The fundamental difference between adventure games and other collectibles is that games have intrinsic value and "usefulness" and not everyone regards them as collectibles. The "players" are essentially locked out of the market by the "collectors".
Yeah, but MichalN, what about my example of classic cars? on't they have intrinsic value and "usefulness". I don't know if anyone doesn't regard them as collectibles, but I think there are plenty of people who regard cars as just a tool to get somewhere. So instead of driving my classic Shelby Mustang, I'm driving my Mitsubishi Eclipse. And instead of paying big bucks for Celtica, I'll just go out and buy Runaway instead (which arguably would be the better game anyways).
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas...
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 7:46am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By lakerz (15 FEB 2003 7:13am)
Don't they have intrinsic value and "usefulness".
They do... but see below.
I don't know if anyone doesn't regard them as collectibles, but I think there are plenty of people who regard cars as just a tool to get somewhere. So instead of driving my classic Shelby Mustang, I'm driving my Mitsubishi Eclipse.
There you go. As a device for getting from point A to point B, classic cars are easily replaceable, and the modern replacement is likely to be more comfortable, faster etc. etc.
And instead of paying big bucks for Celtica, I'll just go out and buy Runaway instead (which arguably would be the better game anyways).
Might well be a better game, but I don't think this argument holds. Celtica is Celtica and Runaway is Runaway. They are not interchangeable. Next you will say that adventure games can be replaced with FPSs
I forgot my sig.
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 7:24pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Re: what a collectible is or isn't: IMHO, it's a waste of time to parse responses to prove/disprove irrelevant points.
A collectible is by definition anything people want to collect, for any reason. Collectibles rise/fall in value depending on how many of the items are available vs. how many people want them. When collectibles rise in value, their accessibility to individuals becomes directly related to their ability to pay for them.
Trying to separate collectibles into different categories because of some perceived difference in how they are used/enjoyed is a waste of time. One person may enjoy just looking at his/her vintage 1969 Mustang or they may enjoy parading around in front of everyone else. Another may like just looking at their rare stamp knowing that almost noone else can. I may just like the appearance of my Celtica and Reah sitting on my shelf or I might just love to play them. And perhaps, our collectibles are simply seen as investments. It really doesn't matter.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 FEB 2003 at 11:34pm |
Monsey_JoeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 58
Joined: 2 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Regarding libraries: My local library carries adventure games , however I have no use from it. First, loan period is a week, I would constantly have to run back and forth for use. Second, when a large amount of people use a CD-ROM it becomes scratched and unplayable, so libraries are not much use when it comes to Adventure Games (though I have played the 7th Guest, and Secrets can kill from the library).
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