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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:27pm |
| Deleted User | Aya,
Yes, you're dodging SirDave's question.
No, most books are NOT reprinted, that's really NOT true. Only the popular ones, the Mysts, the Monkey Islands among the books, so to speak.
yes, it's certainly a great idea if such a library actually opened... do you think it's possible though? i think not (and don't tell me about video clubs that rent games... i'm talking really OLD and RARE stuff here)
Either I expressed myself badly again... or you read my reply diagonally. Existing libraries DO LEND GAMES. Including OLD and RARE ones. Don't believe me? Move to Holland and check out my local library, where you can lend Celtica.
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 2:32pm |
| Deleted User | Not quite true Even with a below average scanner you can OCR the pages of a book with a most satisfactory result.
HA! Define satisfactory.
Betje (in the book business)
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 3:38pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (13 FEB 2003 2:32pm)
HA! Define satisfactory.
Perfectly readable
Betje (in the book business)
HA! So what? Do you want me to show you a few links?
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 4:03pm |
| Deleted User | Quote:Betje (in the book business)
HA! So what? o you want me to show you a few links?
It means that I've tried to scan plenty of books. (For legal purposes only.) Quality varies, to say the least. Depends on font, pitch, italics etc., notes, superscript, the age of the book, the quality of the paper, you name it.
And yes, I'd love to see a few links! Thanks.
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 4:13pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (13 FEB 2003 4:03pm)
Quality varies, to say the least.
So do scanners
And yes, I'd love to see a few links! Thanks.
Lovecraft collection (I think everything's there): http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/works/
And I know a Spanish site where they have about 500 hard-to-find (and some out-of-print) Sci-fi books scanned both by the owners of the site and readers. I compared one of those with my "original" copy of Hitchhicker's Guide To The Galaxy and, from what I read, it was perfect. I know a person who reads a lot of them and he also told me they had a great quality.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 5:02pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | After having played a rare or at least relatively unavailable game my first thought is always, why don't they have a library for these things? Where the public can go and for a very minimal fee, check out and play these jewels? At my library we have one, yes, one game on the shelf. Evolva by Peter Gabriel. Not exactly a great start, huh? Maybe the reason is in that pesky licsense agreement. I wonder how many devs would give their permission to allow their game to sit on a library shelf and be checked out? Music CD are in tons of libraries now and it's not that hard to copy a music CD. Any book can obviously be copied, (though I for one hate reading fiction on a computer screen or even on a printout. Doesn't work for me.) When will we start to see more games?
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 5:06pm |
ValGuild Master
Posts : 3472
Joined: 2 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Evolva? I've never heard of that from Peter Gabriel. I've heard of Eve and Xplora 1. Know any other info. about the game?
Love the image on this page:
http://realworld.on.net/rwmm/xplora/index.html
We can be heroes, just for one day.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 5:19pm |
| Deleted User | And I know a Spanish site where they have about 500 hard-to-find (and some out-of-print) Sci-fi books scanned both by the owners of the site and readers. I compared one of those with my "original" copy of Hitchhicker's Guide To The Galaxy and, from what I read, it was perfect. I know a person who reads a lot of them and he also told me they had a great quality.
Sure, there are thousands of sites whith scanned books, like your links. I visited the Lovecraft site. Yes, that's the wonderul end result, but it doesn't say anything about the quality of the scans of the original books (and that's what we were talking about) or the enormous amount of work that goes into proofreading and presenting those texts, either by the contributors or by the proofreaders (who are mentioned at the top of the page). Just read the Proofer's FAQ at the Gutenberg site.
What I hear you say, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you haven't actually tried yourself to scan a book. You can burn I-don't-know-how-many game CD's in the time that it takes to scan and edit one book.
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 5:25pm |
| Deleted User | I wonder how many devs would give their permission to allow their game to sit on a library shelf and be checked out?
They get paid for it, same as authors, publishers, translators and other copyright holders of books. Every time you take out a library book, a small percentage of the fee you pay, goes to the copyrightholder(s).
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 5:51pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | n Originally Posted By Betje (13 FEB 2003 5:19pm)
What I hear you say, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you haven't actually tried yourself to scan a book. You can burn I-don't-know-how-many game CD's in the time that it takes to scan and edit one book.
Actually no, that wasn't my point Panayotis said that most books are always re-released but I told him he was wrong. However, finding old books is relatively easy, not because of "scanned" copies but because there're more specialized libraries for older books than stores for older games. So my thought is: maybe, just maybe, buying a copy of a long out-of-print game is more justifiable than buying a CD of scanned books.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 6:01pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Val,
I meant Xplora. Sorry. There is an Evolva out there too I think, and I always get the titles mixed up.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 6:08pm |
ValGuild Master
Posts : 3472
Joined: 2 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By scout (13 FEB 2003 6:01pm)
Val,
I meant Xplora. Sorry. There is an Evolva out there too I think, and I always get the titles mixed up.
Xplora is pretty rare. I've been looking for it for a couple of years. You can still buy Eve from that site I linked to above but not Xplora.
We can be heroes, just for one day.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 6:27pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | You'll love what my library did to their copy of Xplora. They cut the front and back of the box out and slipped them into the front and back of a plastic 3-ring binder, then put the rest of the game inside. The check out person was wondering why anyone would care to see the box. Seeing it all butchered up like that gave me a moment's pause. Still, all the original docs are with the game. which is nice as the manual is a work of art in its own right. They can't let a boxed game go out, so that was their next best option.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 6:28pm |
ValGuild Master
Posts : 3472
Joined: 2 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By scout (13 FEB 2003 6:26pm)
You'll love what my library did to their copy of Xplora. They cut the front and back of the box out and slipped them into the front and back of a plastic 3-ring binder, then put the rest of the game inside. The check out person was wondering why anyone would care to see the box. Seeing it all butchered up like that gave me a moment's pause. Still, all the original docs are with the game. which is nice as the manual is a work of art in its own right. They can't let a boxed game go out, so that was their next best option.
That's so saaaaaaddddd! :'(
We can be heroes, just for one day.
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:03pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Rael (13 FEB 2003 5:51pm)
Actually no, that wasn't my point
...I think this is a classic case of Betje kicking in a door that was open all the time... :-[
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:10pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (13 FEB 2003 10:03pm)
...I think this is a classic case of Betje kicking in a door that was open all the time... :-[
Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. It's very difficult to follow a discussion where Aya Brea is involved
BTW, scout, I assume that check-out person was fired?!
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:12pm |
lakerzPrivate Detective
Posts : 654
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | If there was ever a valid "Hot Spot" topic, this would be it. But I digress...
More to the point, much like the abandonware thread that someone started a few months back and had a lot of people chiming in (including me), this topic brings out many interesting points. I can see where Aya is coming from, although I can't agree with every argument he makes. Specifically the stamp argument. The way I think of it is everyone had the chance to buy a certain stamp when it was first released. Same with any computer or video game. The exception to this is the occassional "oops" stamp with the airplane upside down or whatever. I would equate this type of stamp to a game that was only released in a ver limited area (Treasure Hunter or Yellow Brick Road for example).
So, anyone who wants to buy it has that opportunity. Wait too long, and then you take your chances on what the open market deems is the value of a certain item. Now, I can just imagine someone immediately saying hey, I wasn't into gaming when Celtica came out, but now I am and I should be able to play it without having to sell my car first!! And that would be a valid point. But, I can also say hey, I wasn't even born when the Mickey Mantle rookie card was released! I want one, and should be able to own one without having to rob a bank first!! Or, I can make a case that I went through a period of my life where I wasn't so into games and thus missed out on a lot of adventure games that weren't in stores for too long. I've since paid a handsome sum making up for that, but I did have my chance to purchase these items for what the publisher was asking.
And Aya also made the point that adventure games and other collectibles differ because people want to *play* adventure games. This is true, games are a very curious form of interactive art. You can't fully enjoy the game until you play it, right? Point well taken in my mind, but again I would say that the person had the chance to own it when it came out, and if the person really wants to just play it, there are plenty of abandonment sites out there. Sure, they're getting watered down versions of the game (ie ripped versions) that really can't compare to owning the real thing, but I think that is an acceptable way to experience a game without shelling out twice it's original price. Much like buying a reprint of a famous painting. Not the same as being in the museum a foot away from it looking at every nuance though.
I'm not necessarily against abandonment sites. Like I said in that past thread, I've downloaded several games from underdogs because I really wanted to try them out. But the problem I would have with this is for people to be making a profit of illegal copies of a game. True, a person selling Celtica for $1000 online gets all that money, while H+a gets nothing other than the $50 from the person buying the game, but at least that person owns the original game and has the right to sell his "license" of it should he/she choose. The pirate is making money off of no original investment at all. They never owned the right to sell of their copy. So it does piss me off when I get emails from people after losing an auction telling me I can have a copy of it for x amount. So I really can't imagine anyone making an argument that the person selling a legitimate PC game on ebay, not knowing how much people will bid on it, is anywhere close to being as bad/wrong as someone trying to make money by selling a cd-r of a game.
Oh, and by the way, the local library is a good place to try and see what (if any) software they have for loan! I always forgot about that avenue!
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas...
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:25pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By lakerz (13 FEB 2003 10:12pm)
Oh, and by the way, the local library is a good place to try and see what (if any) software they have for loan! I always forgot about that avenue!
The library! Hey, what a great idea! Aya, are you reading this?
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:26pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Rael (13 FEB 2003 10:10pm)
It's very difficult to follow a discussion where Aya Brea is involved
I had NO problem following the discussion with Aya.
Betje
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:28pm |
lakerzPrivate Detective
Posts : 654
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2003 1:13am)
I sympathize with those that may not be able to ever play Celtica, or whatever, but then, I'm never going to sit courtside beside Jack Nicholson to watch the Lakers. I called the Lakers front office and told them this wasn't fair 'cause I couldn't afford the $500. Their response was something to the effect of 'tough-sh*t' buddy, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck can.
I had to chuckle reading this. This is almost exactly what I put in the off topic thread asking people what their one wish would be before they die! I never did like Matt Damon or Ben Affleck much. Now I know why! They got my seats!! Oh well, I'll have to stick with my cheap seats I guess.
I forgot to add the fact that you need to add a zero to the price of sitting courtside (next to Jack). $500 will get you close but courtside seats start at $2500, and those are no where near center court.
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas...
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:35pm |
lakerzPrivate Detective
Posts : 654
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Another somewhat relevant aside to the whole playing games as opposed to collecting games argument I just thought of is cars.
I mean, cars aren't meant to be collected right? They're meant to be driven! Are certain cars now considered art? I would say yes. Unfortunately, I wasn't born when Mercedes Benz first introduced their "gull wing" car with the doors that rise upward instead of being pulled back. I sure would like to own that car now, but it's now considered a collector's item and a true piece of art by many, and it would cost me a million bucks to own one. It's not fair that I'll never be able to experience this amazing car as cars are meant to be driven not collected. However, the world is not always fair, and I just have to accept the fact that the closest I'll ever get to one is in a museum. This is the path many consumer items take.
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas...
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 10:45pm |
lakerzPrivate Detective
Posts : 654
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Sorry to be monopolizing this thread, but there is one more thing I feel I should add! Speaking of Celtica, Coreoverload over at GameBoomers forum was nice enough to let people know there are some Greek language Celtica's available at an online store. Anyone interested should follow this link:
http://www.gameboomers.com/ubboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=010291
Given the number of Greek people on this site, I thought someone might be interested. So, buy it while you can!
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas...
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| 13 FEB 2003 at 11:55pm |
msadvIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 66
Joined: 1 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Interesting topic. The first part of the issue is pretty basic. Selling something that you legally own regardless of the profit, is still legal. Selling something you ripped off, regardless of whether or not it deprives anyone is still illegal.
The gray area that Aya refers to is the more interesting part. For instance, jacking up grocery prices in poor neighborhoods because of a captive audience and no competition is legal, but is it right? Well, is selling a rare game for several times the original price because of no competition right? Both situations take advantage of the consumer. Guess it depends upon how one looks at it. If one's attitude is only whatever the market will bear, then it's fine. To others it may seem greedy and exploitative, and not fine. To those, sharing a copied game that deprives no one and brings pleasure to many even though technically illegal is the higher approach. Something to consider. Ah, the gray areas.
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| 14 FEB 2003 at 12:05am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (13 FEB 2003 2:26pm)
Aya,
Yes, you're dodging SirDave's question.
if you're referring to the "would i sell a game for $150" i responded that i wouldn't sell my games anyway... now if a nutter came and told me "i give you $500 for that game" i'd do it yes, but that's the exception, not the rule... and i also said that i'd gladly copy a game that's out of print to a friend who has trouble finding it for a descent price... so i belong to both groups!
in case you were referring to the what do i propose question i responded that Monsey_Joe said it perfectly, so read his post
No, most books are NOT reprinted, that's really NOT true. Only the popular ones, the Mysts, the Monkey Islands among the books, so to speak.
how many sierra games do you see rereleased? and those were among the most popular ones, weren't they (there are of course a lot of other examples - not only from adv games)
Either I expressed myself badly again... or you read my reply diagonally. Existing libraries DO LEND GAMES. Including OLD and RARE ones. Don't believe me? Move to Holland and check out my local library, where you can lend Celtica.
really? that's great then... i know i live in the "wrong" country anyway!
of course lending games involve another problem: for how long can you borrow a game? cause when it comes to books or movies you know in advance how long it's going to take you to finish them, but you don't know that when it comes to games, and it varies a lot from game to game... you can borrow syberia and finish it in 2-3 days, but what about corruption (just stressing the difficulty level)? how long would you need for that (assuming you don't want to use walkthrus)? and playing a game should be a stress-relieving activity, not a stress-amplifying one ("da[/black]mn i only have 13 hours left to finish this game!"
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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