| 8 MAY 2007 at 5:22pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | ok, it's time to speak my piece about all that's been going on on the ja forum lately
as several ppl know i was totally against the opening of a p&r forum, and totally in favor of completely banning any discussions on those matters... now everyone who knows me knows that i fully support freedom of speech and expression (to a fault some may argue) and resent censorship with the strongest passion... but those ideas mainly apply to a mature, civilized world... unfortunately, when it comes to p&r, there are ppl who cannot control themselves (not just talking about this forum), and somehow think those subjects actually give them the right to insult other ppl and generally act like they are superior to everyone else
the p&r forum should never have existed, but unfort it did... the biggest problem though was the leniency that ja showed throughout its existence... as a result of that, just like children, ppl somehow got the idea that they own the forum and that they reserve the rights to do whatever they want... and not only that, just like children, when the forum finally decided to put a stop to this, some ppl considered it as a personal attack or smth, forgetting that visiting and posting on this forum is a PRIVILEGE given to them by the owner of the forum, who is the only one having the rights to decide what can and cannot be discussed
this is an ADVENTURE GAME forum, NOT a politics forum... if you ask me, even the off topic forum shouldn't exist, but it's only natural that ppl will get to know each other and will want to talk about smth else... again, what can and cannot be discussed can only be decided by the owner of the forum... in the pre-p&r days, ja didn't even have mods (the 2 ja-staff accounts back then where practially inactive)... after p&r, not only did ja require mods, but there even was a need for a 3rd one!!! that says a lot me thinks... mainly that some ppl here cannot control themselves, and the mods did a great job try to control this chaos that some of you created (and were pretty patient)
the p&r forum will (should) not ever come back... personally, i would like to see the ppl that left return and join in the discussions that this forum was made for: adventure games... and if they're reading this, take a second and think: you would never have had a problem if you were told up front that p&r is not allowed here! you would have just seeked a forum that is about that, and kept posting here about adventure games
oh, and btw, i am here and i'll always be here! and also, if this even gets close to turning into another bitchfest by certain individuals it will be immediately locked
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 5:28pm |
| Deleted User | Can we reply to this or will our posts be deleted or the thread locked ?
P.S. (Later)
I would have added some comments to Randy's post, but being an old man I was having an hour's siests during the time that that thread was open. By the time i resurfaced, it was already locked !
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 6:23pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Aya,
It is hard to argue against many of your points, but IMO the unrest that has occurred is not just due to the removal of P&R, but how it was handled after the fact.
Re: Removal of P&R
There is no doubt that the privilege of having P&R was abused however that shouldn't obscure the fact that it became a very popular destination for a number of JA members, many of whom discussed a variety of potentially volatile subjects in a relatively mature, respectful manner. This resulted in the fact that P&R, in addition to Off-Topic became part of the 'personality' of JA that distinguished it from the other 2 main adventure forums. Did the negative fall-out from P&R as described by you & Randy lead to a situation where the only recourse was closing it? Not an easy question. On the one hand, I have a strong feeling that a firmer hand from the mods from the get-go and the removal from the forum of any individuals who were only looking for trouble in P&R might have prevented its deterioration. On the other hand, I can't help but feel sad that Randy should have had to put up with the negativity that emanated directly or indirectly from the existence of P&R. To the extent that that happened was simply unfair.
Re: After the fact:
I can't help but feel that the combination of the abruptness of the closing of P&R and the complete lockdown on any discussion of its removal to the extent of the immediate removal of posts is IMO what has really left many JA members confused and frustrated. To go from one extreme to the other would seem to be counter-productive to the health of a forum that had a reputation for allowing people to express themselves in a particularly open way. In a sense, in an attempt to fix a situation where a few people were acting like children, the solution gives the appearance of treating everyone like children. For instance, I don't know what to make of the fact that everyone has been muzzled when it comes to commenting on the removal of P&R and yet you are posting on the subject. Is the purpose of this thread so that we can air out our feelings on the matter? Perhaps that should be clarified and perhaps that should have been allowed from the beginning.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 6:32pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I think it is unfortunate that it has come to this measure.
In a perfect world people could have intellegent rational conversations about Politics and Religion and still respect other peoples opinions. Unfortunatly in the real world these conversations can turn into heated arguments which while still could ba a valid discussion of opposing views, all to often descend to petty name calling and backstabbing. (This can also happen in other areas like Adventure Games etc where opposing passionate opinions are held)
This was the main reason I avoided the place like the plague.
I do think, and have said over and over again that the P&R section had a negative affect on the rest of the forum, but do still feel sorry for the members who did enjoy those conversations and were able to discuss them in an intellegent manner that it has been ruined by a small minority.
In the short term I do think this will have a negative effect on the forum, people will leave, people will protest, mods will get overzealous about clamping down on Offtopic etc, maybe people will post less who knows.
I do hope that people will choose to stay around and help get the board gets back to discussing what we all came here for in the first place. - Myst vs Everything else arguments.
In the long term hopefully some of the members will return (hey Inland has returned already), new members will join and the forum will get back to the old days.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 7:11pm |
Ex-JAStaff3Private Detective
Posts : 734
Joined: 10 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | In reply to Sir Dave -
The decision not to have any discussion about P&R was made in part because we knew that it would result in major spillover. We were right. The nasty posts about what was done started right away. Instead of PMing the moderators or administrators, some posters decided that the posted guidelines didn't apply to them, and began to rant against us as if having the P&R section was their right. To avoid an all-out war, we decided to delete those posts and PM the parties. Some listened and understood, some left in a huff, and some persisted in their negative posts. Only one person's account, however, has been suspended by us, and that is only for a week, although we were nearly provoked enough to make it permanent.
I'm sorry that several people have chosen to leave, but we all make choices in life. The P&R forum is gone. If someone* chooses not to participate in any of the other sections that this forum provides, then so be it.
*Edited for clarity
Retired Spam Zapper & Troll Tackler
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 7:19pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (8 MAY 2007 6:23pm)
It is hard to argue against many of your points, but IMO the unrest that has occurred is not just due to the removal of P&R, but how it was handled after the fact.
Exactly. I can understand the problems the P&R forum created for Randy and why it was closed, but the reasons should have been made clear before the forum was closed and before people started leaving.
On the other hand, I can't help but feel sad that Randy should have had to put up with the negativity that emanated directly or indirectly from the existence of P&R. To the extent that that happened was simply unfair.
Unfair indeed.
The hints of hidden pressures leave a bad taste.
I forgot my sig.
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 7:45pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JA-Staff3 (8 MAY 2007 7:10pm)
In reply to Sir Dave -
The decision not to have any discussion about P&R was made in part because we knew that it would result in major spillover. We were right. The nasty posts about what was done started right away. Instead of PMing the moderators or administrators, some posters decided that the posted guidelines didn't apply to them, and began to rant against us as if having the P&R section was their right. To avoid an all-out war, we decided to delete those posts and PM the parties. Some listened and understood, some left in a huff, and some persisted in their negative posts. Only one person's account, however, has been suspended by us, and that is only for a week, although we were nearly provoked enough to make it permanent.
I'm sorry that several people have chosen to leave, but we all make choices in life. The P&R forum is gone. If you do not want to participate in any of the other sections that this forum provides, then so be it.
Since you addressed this post to me, I can only assume that the 'you' in the last sentence refers to me. If so, and you did not mean the collective 'you' then it is an unfortunate choice of words since nowhere in my post did I suggest that my further participation in the forum was contingent on the presence of P&R. That simply isn't the way I operate.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 7:49pm |
Ex-JAStaff3Private Detective
Posts : 734
Joined: 10 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | No, I meant the collective "you." I will amend that.
Retired Spam Zapper & Troll Tackler
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 8:05pm |
| Deleted User | Firstly I agree pretty well word for word with the main thrust of SirDave’s post.
Some members were allowed to get away with blue murder for a VERY long time with hardly any reprimand, or open warning that they were overstepping the mark which would have served as a general indication to everybody.
IMO, the problem was not so much the extreme differences of political &/or religious opinions & beliefs… but the fact that some people CONSTANTLY vilified others PERSONALLY.
There is a VAST difference IMHO between saying (just hypothetically) :-
“I disagree with you diametrically ----------”, “You are wrong about ----------”, “You do not know the full facts or background ----------”, “You have taken that quote out of context ----------”, etc.
and :-
“I disagree with you diametrically you bloody fool ----------”, “You are wrong about that fact that every half baked informed person knows ----------”, “You do not know the full facts or background… why don’t you look up your facts before you open your big mouth ----------”, “You have taken that quote out of context like all demagogues do ----------”, etc.
~~ Randy ~~ … I will give you credit for this though, you voice your opinions up front and don't stab people in the back. Many of you would be shocked to know how many people who you thought were your 'friends' were actually in private emailing JA Forum staff and complaining about everything imaginable on the P&R Forum. How some of these people manage to live with themselves is beyond me as they seem to seem to disagree with anything and everything that is posted and then instead of confronting the issue, they send emails to me or Val or Aya threatening to quit the site forever if we don't put so-and-so in their place and inform them that their opinion is wrong. Well, guess what, Randy, et al has had enough of the whining and complaining and the backstabbing. To the mods :- and just for the record :-
How long has this emailing & PM-ing to mods being going on and in what quantity.
Seems I’m EXTREMELY naïve.
I was guilty of this just once only in a few years of posting… IIRC !
[section deleted]
Is it REALLY true that constant backbiting has been going on, not only on the P&R Forum itself, but also in emails & PR’s to mods ???
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 8:13pm |
Ex-JAStaff3Private Detective
Posts : 734
Joined: 10 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Len -
This is what I mean by spillover. You are dragging out past history. Please stop.
Retired Spam Zapper & Troll Tackler
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 9:02pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | I fully support and respect the decision.
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 9:33pm |
| Deleted User | Forget the discussion of past history ... cut it out if it offends you... that was not my intention at all and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it.
My point was ONLY .......................
I read that some members have been contacting the mods VERY FREQUENTLY with all sorts of complaints.
I simply wanted to make it clear that [size=16]I was NOT one of those people !!
I hope I can say that without reprimand !?!?!?
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 9:45pm |
JA-Staff2Private Detective
Posts : 466
Joined: 4 JUN 2004
Location: 0
Status : Online | Since we are hopefully discussing this in a mature manner, I'd like to address some of the points Sir Dave made. The "you"s are collective "you"s
I have a strong feeling that a firmer hand from the mods from the get-go and the removal from the forum of any individuals who were only looking for trouble in P&R might have prevented its deterioration.
I partly agree. Here lies the issue. It is extremely difficult to balance the freedom of expression while at the same time trying to moderate. What in one culture might be seen as extremely offensive, in another it might be seen as normal. At one point or another someone is going to be offended. Had we dealt with it on a case by case basis, eventually nearly everyone who took part in that area would have been banned. JA is probably the most open forum on the web. Some subjects have just proven to be taboo and have no place here.
Think about what you are saying here though. The focus of this site is Adventure Games. We are constantly working on new ideas to improve the site. As Randy pointed out, we get endless PMs from people who at some point are upset over something that was happening in P&R. Saying that we should have had a firmer hand in there means constantly babysitting an area that has absolutely nothing to do with this site. This takes precious time away from our ability to improve the site and focus on Adventure Games. How many times did that area attract posters who had no interest in Adventure Games but only wanted to talk P&R? The members who participated defended them and let them stay. We should have had to keep an eye on them? I volunteered to moderate an Adventure Games forum, not a Political forum.
Should we have spent our energy on constantly putting out fires in an area that has nothing to do with this site, or just get rid of the area outright and focus on what we are all here for?
I can't help but feel that the combination of the abruptness of the closing of P&R and the complete lockdown on any discussion of its removal to the extent of the immediate removal of posts is IMO what has really left many JA members confused and frustrated.
I think this is a case of not being able to see the forest through the trees. Warning was given months ago and the area was shut down for several days. It was clearly stated that if things ever heated up again, that it would be shut down for good. As Aya pointed out, its like dealing with children. The parent makes a rule, the kids promise to behave, then over time they do it again. The parent gets mad, the kids promise to behave again, and it never ends. Some of us have kids, we know what this leads to. The best thing once you make a rule is to stick with it. Chances were given, too many in fact, and now it's gone for good.
Some of you were looking for a singular event that triggered the decision. There was none. It was an endless barrage of events over several weeks. Some of you are looking for an individual that triggered it. There were none. It was pretty much anyone who participated down there at one point or another.
Do you have any idea of the amount of damage that area has done to the reputation of JA? Thousands of people stop by JA all the time and the reputation of the site is based on an area that a dozen or so people participate in which has nothing to do with Adventure Games. You don't see that as a problem? :-?
You want to discuss Politics and Religion? No problem, you are free to do so on a number of OTHER sites.
The only threads that were locked were those that turned political, promoted piracy, or turned into a bashing of the staff. Posts that were deleted were those that either bashed the site, went political, or ripped on the staff. All of which are clear violations of the clearly posted rules. Its been stated many times that if you have an issue with a decision to PM the mods and not air it in public. If we were overzealous, we would have banned the offenders outright as MANY other sites would have done. If anything, those that accused us of being mean spirited or harsh should be grateful that they could leave on their own terms - no other site would have done that.
We are not your enemy. Hopefully when the dust settles and people can look at the big picture of the events that went on while the P&R area was open will realize that it should have never been there in the first place and that we are probably the most lenient bunch of mods on the web and JA has the most lenient forum.
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 9:50pm |
JA-Staff1Space Cadet
Posts : 171
Joined: 20 OCT 2002
Location: 0
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (8 MAY 2007 7:18pm)
Exactly. I can understand the problems the P&R forum created for Randy and why it was closed, but the reasons should have been made clear before the forum was closed and before people started leaving.
I'd be more than happy to tell you, Michal, and everyone else why this was done.
P&R has been "on probation" since October. All members were warned that it would be closed if there continued to be problems.
Had we given any notice, a multitude of people would have stored every single post that had offended them. For what reason? I feel safe in saying that they would bring it up again and again in a different thread, under a different topic. Instead of letting things go, some people insist on obsessing on the past. I've received many, many pm's along the lines of "So-and-so said this, and a month ago, they said that. This is a pattern that shows hatred towards Jews/Christians/lesbians, etc. and you have to do something now."
Does that clear up anything for anyone?
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 10:29pm |
| Deleted User | But.....but........where can I go with all my P&R topics?
:-[
And where is Betje?
Gone again?
Oh well, that's one member who will return!
Shall we Betje on thatje?
8-)
Personally I've never been to the P&R section. But.......but.........
I MUST HAVE BEEN HELL OVER THERE!
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 10:54pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Well the mystery has finally been solved. Thank you JA Staff 2 for saying this:
Some of you were looking for a singular event that triggered the decision. There was none. It was an endless barrage of events over several weeks. Some of you are looking for an individual that triggered it. There were none.
I shall miss being able to talk openly about current affairs - I've learnt quite a lot from people I've spoken to in that forum. But if Randy is being bombarded with complaints I can quite see that he'd get fed up with the stress.
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| 8 MAY 2007 at 11:39pm |
| Deleted User | One thing is definitely true, and both the Site & the Mods are to be commended for it.
I know that most other Sites are far less 'liberal' ... even to the point of banning or at the least ostracizing anybody who utters a whiff of criticism about anything that conflicts in any way with their "Party Line".
***** It's a pity that we couldn't abide by the decent rules of debating societies (as in UK schools & Universities of yore !) until the bubble burst and the whole board had to be shut down !!
I certainly agree that BY FAR the primary task (and my personal almost sole interest) in JA+ is in its dedication to computer Adventure Games (and to all other Sites whose objective is the same)... and all the other adjuncts are completely secondary, and not essentials !!
***** P.S. (later).
Unfortunately IMO, some participants did not simply present factual arguments or opinions per se, but frequently (in some cases continuously) posted items that were solely & deliberately aimed at pure provocation and even personal insults against other members.
I understand that it is terribly difficult (maybe impossible) to draw a line between completely free open discussion and censorship.
However, if it COULD have been done and everybody/anybody (including myself if/where applicable) could have been warned whenever they overstepped the bounds of decency, then MAYBE the P&R board could have been maintained ???
Or maybe it was from the start a Mission Impossible... and those (before my time) who opposed introducing it were correct ??
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| 9 MAY 2007 at 12:02am |
ValGuild Master
Posts : 3472
Joined: 2 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I hate posting this but I cannot just sit idly by... I'm upset...
"you" is used collectively here too..............................
I'm sorry that some don't seem to remember but there WAS warning that board would be closed. It happened before it was suspended the first time and after it re-opened. If people didn't remember that it was on probabtion, then that is unfortunate. This is supposed to be a group of mature adults so reminding shouldn't be necessary. When an employee is put on probation for a work violation, they are not reminded during the probation that if they perform another violation they will be fired. They just have to remember that on their own.
I still cannot believe that anyone is getting upset about a section of a forum closing. It closed. It's just a board and it, as been stated a million times, has nothing to do with the intent of the site. Do you all think it was fun being PMd CONSTANTLY with petty squabbles between people? Trying to make everyone play nice? Every single complainer stating how unfairly they were being treated? Do you think it's fun to come home from work and deal with this crap day and day, month after month? This forum was meant for fun and adventure games. We were spending more time trying to "fix" member problems and threads and posts than even being able to read the posts about games!
Aya is right, that board should have never been started. But, again, we tried to do something nice and do things to please the members, tried to get people to behave maturely, were more than patient for far too long and still, you all throw crap in our faces. It's such an insult when we have worked so hard.... to do it FOR EVERYONE on this forum.
Repeating this part again:
I'm sorry that some don't seem to remember but there WAS warning that board would be closed. It happened before the it was suspended the first time and after it re-opened. If people didn't remember that it was on probabtion, then that is unfortunate. This is supposed to be a group of mature adults so reminding shouldn't be necessary. When an employee is put on probation for a work violation, they are not reminded during the probation that if they perform another violation they will be fired. They just have to remember that on their own.
Are we going to be treated badly if we add a new board? If we get rid of another? Will you ever see the silliness of the anger?
I personally am so hurt by some of the comments that it makes ME want to leave. I don't need this ingratitude when I have worked so hard and have been as fair as humanly possible. And the mods have too. Some of them literally were awake nights because of the stress of that board and trying to do the right thing. Do you think that's fair for them?
To clarify, most of the forum members are wonderful, thoughtful people. It's a few that ruin it for the many as is all too common on this earth.
We can be heroes, just for one day.
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| 9 MAY 2007 at 12:12am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JA-Staff2 (8 MAY 2007 9:45pm)
I can't help but feel that the combination of the abruptness of the closing of P&R and the complete lockdown on any discussion of its removal to the extent of the immediate removal of posts is IMO what has really left many JA members confused and frustrated.
I think this is a case of not being able to see the forest through the trees.
(Note:You put your case well especially the bit about not having signed on to moderate a political forum. The comments that follow to serve only as a mild rebuttal and I won't argue these particular points beyond this.)
Perhaps as far as the abruptness of the closing of P&R goes, but IMO not as far as the effect of the fallout which could have been blunted by allowing some airing out of the subject after the fact instead of a total lockdown on the subject. However hindsight is 20/20.
Do you have any idea of the amount of damage that area has done to the reputation of JA? Thousands of people stop by JA all the time and the reputation of the site is based on an area that a dozen or so people participate in which has nothing to do with Adventure Games. You don't see that as a problem? :-?
Not to the extent that some people did. IMO, if people didn't frequent P&R, they pretty much didn't know it existed. I never really saw P&R subjects affect content in the main adventure section and only very rarely in Off-Topic. Plus I've never seen good evidence of the premise that has been bandied about that some people who were important contributors in the main forum left because of P&R. Still, I can't argue against the fact that P&R overall became difficult to justify when posts became too personal, bashing of cultures and countries became frequent and posters would appear out of nowhere for no other apparent reason than to troll and cause trouble.
Since we're apparently airing things out though:
I for one would like to see the main adventure game section flourish. As a sometimes frequent poster in P&R, the main reason I didn't consider leaving the forum when P&R shut down is the very fact that I came here and remain here for the games. P&R was never the reason I joined or the reason I stayed at JA. Still, I used to contribute to the main adventure section frequently, however, based on a couple of bad experiences in the main forum, I contribute far less than I used to even though I continue to contribute to adventure gaming outside the forum. Without going into further detail, suffice it to say that if someone is going to the trouble of presenting subjects of interest or subjects that increase member interest and participation the main section, then I think it would benefit forum members to both promote those efforts and avoid putting a damper on such projects simply because one doesn't like a particular gaming genre. I say this because my sense is that that is more counterproductive to the adventure gaming part of the forum than P&R ever was.
EDIT: To Val:
You posted while I was writing the above so this is in response: I understand why you are frustrated and as one of posters in P&R I'm sorry that you were placed in the middle of so much of the discontent that resulted from it (though I don't think in all these years I've ever PM'd a mod regarding P&R.....well maybe once, a few years ago). You've been nothing but an asset to this forum and didn't deserve this fallout any more than Randy did. Know how much you are respected and appreciated.
FWIW: Perhaps my post wasn't clear in expressing the fact that I am not in any way, shape or form blasting the decision to close P&R. Rather it was an airing out of the source of some feelings that occurred in the days that followed. People need to do that sometimes.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 9 MAY 2007 at 8:58am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Valadmin (9 MAY 2007 12:01am)
"you" is used collectively here too..............................
So 'you' means 'me' too......
:'(
[img] http://diveintomark.org/public/2006/07/you-make-bunny-cry.jpg[/img]
In other words: Nuff said. It's clear. Close this topic. Finish it. Start Fun topics in Off topics. Play an adventure.
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| 9 MAY 2007 at 10:00am |
KarstenSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 347
Joined: 23 SEP 2006
Location: DK
Status : Offline | I'm sorry that the admins of this board feels bad about the way some people feel about the closing of P&R forums. As for myself, I didn't even know there was an off topic forum nor a P&R forum - untill a few months ago. Not did I know that the P&R forum was on probation. I, for one, has tried my best to be civil to people and to understand why people think the way they do. I've had a very interesting & civil discussion, I think, with Caroline & Len G, about 'modesty buses' and other P&R stuff.
I realize, of course, that this is your site, and you can do what you want with it, also decide that P&R shouldn't be here anymore. I haven't really noticed P&R subjects spilling over in the game forums. But here’s a thread about religion & spirtuality in games.
http://justadventure.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1177016583
Apparently this is allowed?? (I pm an admin about, this too)
Anyway, I can go somewhere else, if I want to discuss politics and religions. But I’ll tell you that most of the discussions, even the heated ones, were far more civil than the current discussions about P& R in my country. (Denmark, Europe). I also frequent the Bethesda Game Forums which have a very strict no P&R policy. And I like it going there, since it takes me out of the current P&R discussions in Denmark. That’s also partly why I enjoy coming to adventure sites like this one – the other part has to do with this site being about one of my favorite hobbies – adventure gaming.
As for Val and Aya, please don’t leave [ch61514] We need you here – you’re woth gold to this site [ch61514]
Karsten
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