| 17 APR 2007 at 8:42pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | I watched the convocation, and it was really amazing. One of the school's female staff was really great in keeping the spirit of the community up-lifted, I believe that's the way to go, instead of plummeting into depression and grief. I was a bit surprised at first, but I really commend the lady for her cool and strong spirit despite the horrible carnage. The students started cheering to her speech, and smiles could be seen on some of the students' faces. It was really exhilarating, watching that convocation, which included speeches from Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Jewish community leaders. This is the first time I appreciated a passage from the bible being read. It was so relevant and inspiring.
Of course not everyone is that strong, and there was a breakdown from someone in the crowd.
There are many stories and accounts of bravery in this horrible ordeal, and it's really cheering seeing these things. It gives you hope for the future. For each monster, there are dozens of good people.
One of those stories is of a Romanian born Israeli professor (For some reason, CNN kept insisting he was Israeli-born, but the opposite is true) who was apparently a Holocaust survivor (ironic in light of the fact Holocaust Memorial Day was yesterday, the day of the massacre) and according to accounts barricaded the door of his classroom and basically protected his students with his body. If that's true, he literally sacrificed his life to save his student's. There was a heartbreaking hebrew interview with his widow who lives in the states on Israeli TV. Seeing people who lost their loved ones so little time after they lost them is really unnerving. Before that there was an English interview on CNN with his son in Israel. Different experience, obviously, but same reaction from both mother and son.
Oh, and CNN mentioned a lot of other massacres, but is looks like they had forgotten about the one in Minnesota two years ago.
|
| 17 APR 2007 at 10:09pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TC (17 APR 2007 8:42pm)
One of those stories is of a Romanian born Israeli professor For some reason, CNN kept insisting he was Israeli-born, but the opposite is true) who was apparently a Holocaust survivor (ironic in light of the fact Holocaust Memorial Day was yesterday, the day of the massacre) and according to accounts barricaded the door of his classroom and basically protected his students with his body.
That's what I read... the prof held a classroom door shut while the students escaped through the window. What a fascinating story, both tragic and uplifting. The coincidences are mind-boggling.
I forgot my sig.
|
| 17 APR 2007 at 10:25pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Yeah...His wife and son kept their cool, but you can often see through the facade of fresh mourners. :-/
The thing that really enrages me about free gun advocates, is the their dumb, Dumb argument that: "Gun laws will only prevent innocent people from having guns to protect themselves from the criminals"
Well, my retort is: It's a fact that right now gun laws are leninent in USA, especially in Virginia, right? So how come guns didn't help the victims in this particular 'incident'? :-?
I just want to add that communities such as Virginia Tech are really inspiring. Despite what happened, most students are going to stay there. It's the kind of enviornment I would think of having my academic education in, even after this horrible event. I actually came across the term Virginia Tech Hokies a few months ago, and was really impressed with the things I read about the university, being a diverse, global community.
|
| 17 APR 2007 at 10:27pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | There were two Aussies there, one of whom hit the floor and played dead as his classmates were all slaughtered.
I think Petter has mentioned two very pertinent points. Currently society seems incapable or unwilling to find and treat those who are mentally unstable and public access to guns.
But as for knowing what to expect from such a fellow - how could we? Such events are one-off explosions, people don't normally practice this sort of action. He definitely planned it though, - he brought his own chains.
|
| 17 APR 2007 at 10:28pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Argh... What a sick person...
There were people there of many nationals: India, Lebanon (and a few other ME countries), China etc... Some Israeli students, I think some British and the list goes on and on... What a shame.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 4:35am |
| Deleted User | The picture of a true hero:
[img]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/papabrody1/amd_shootlibrescu.jpg[/img]
A teacher that save the lives of many students by sacrificing his own.
And a Holocaust survivor at that.
Thank you for your courage.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 12:56pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TC (17 APR 2007 10:25pm)
Well, my retort is: It's a fact that right now gun laws are leninent in USA, especially in Virginia, right? So how come guns didn't help the victims in this particular 'incident'? :-?
It is obvious you don't know what the gun advocates are saying What they are saying is that it was in fact a tragic mistake to forbid guns on the VT campus. If only the students and professors had been armed (their reasoning goes), the massacre could have been avoided. Arming potentially unstable teenagers is clearly the way forward.
Of course you have some people saying things like "I'm already dragging around pounds and pounds of textbooks and I already carry a laptop and iPod and cell phone and whatnot, I have no room to carry a gun", but they're crazy liberals and you shouldn't listen to them.
The gun advocates' argument can be summed up like this: America is a violent society and that's exactly why we need more guns!
And BTW yes, gun laws are not very strict in VA and the killer purchased both guns legally. The law says that you can't buy more than one gun a month... so the killer waited some weeks between buying his weapons.
In 2005, teachers were disturbed by Mr. Cho's writing (very violent scenes, including shooting people) and referred him to university authorities, but at the time there wasn't really anything to do because Cho hadn't done anything illegal, he was just weird.
I just want to add that communities such as Virginia Tech are really inspiring. Despite what happened, most students are going to stay there. It's the kind of enviornment I would think of having my academic education in, even after this horrible event.
Humans are amazingly resilient. Even after a devastating war, they don't roll over and die, they keep on living.
I forgot my sig.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 1:17pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Yes Mike
A true hero. [smiley=bowdown.gif]
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 2:44pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | A great man indeed. I have so much more respect and appreciation for him than for a fully-armed and armoured soldier who "fights" unarmed, armourless children. Too bad such a great and unselfish person left this country, but then again - maybe because he is unselfish he couldn't be part of Egocentria. :-/
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 3:07pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Here's a brief bio of Prof. Librescu: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/liviu_librescu/index.html
He immigrated to Israel from Romania in 1978, but didn't stay long and moved to the US in 1984.
Interesting details are now emerging about the gunman. Two female students complained about his "annoying" (but nothing beyond that) behaviour to campus police in late 2005. He was even briefly detained and evaluated for mental health care. There were hints that he might be suicidal. He was probably taking psychiatric prescription drugs at the time of the shooting.
I forgot my sig.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 6:05pm |
| Deleted User | We disussed this incident a bit at work today. It's difficult to know what to make of an event on the news like this. You get a little shocked and a little interested, but what else is there to do? It's a little frustrating actually.
I wonder how big news this event made in the rest of the world. Clearly we care more about what happens in North America here in Europe than what happens in South America for instance. Today there was another series of suicide bombings in Iraq. More than 170 dead. Over six times the death toll of Virginia Tech, and those people were not merely shot to death but blown to pieces! Similar massacres happen almost daily, and by now they just make a brief report on the news, whereas with events like the university shooting we get every little detail examined for weeks. It would be interesting to see how much time the news media in the Middle East spends on this shooting.
About the gun culture, I don't think this will change anything in the long run. Maybe the local gun laws will be tightened, but that's it. It's a difficult concept to understand from an outsider's point of view I guess. Deep down there's a difference in the public mindset compared to here. America is a DIY society, where you don't sit around and wait for the police to come to the rescue. You are supposed to defend yourself. It's a mindset that dates back to the birth of the nation, to which people immigrated and started building new lives with their bare hands and little or no outside help. Guns in homes helped defend Americans when the British invaded and so forth, and it's remained in the collective memory. Over here, the trust in the authorities is much higher, normal people never consider getting a gun for self defence (I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who I know owns one for that purpose) because it is assumed that the police will protect you and that apart from them, the military, hunters and hobby marksmen, guns is something that only criminals carry. And that's in fact very close to the truth.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 7:14pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (18 APR 2007 6:05pm)
I wonder how big news this event made in the rest of the world.
It's been well reported here in the Czech Rep. Pretty big news in the UK. I think it resonates with everyone, especially with all students and everyone who ever studied at a university.
Similar massacres happen almost daily, and by now they just make a brief report on the news, whereas with events like the university shooting we get every little detail examined for weeks.
Something that happens every day isn't news. But the irony wasn't lost on me.
It's a difficult concept to understand from an outsider's point of view I guess.
It's actually really hard to understand for many Americans! Guns are very unevenly distributed in the US, with fewest of them in large cities and many people owning an arsenal in the rural areas.
Guns are part of American culture and mythology. The 2nd Amendment has almost mystical power. An astonishing number of Americans is absolutely unable to accept that something written 200 years ago under entirely different circumstances might no longer be applicable.
The argument that citizens should be able to stage an armed rebellion is not unreasonable, but in light of the fact that their government has tanks, helicopters and artillery, it's completely unrealistic. Besides, recent experience shows that the most pro-gun section of the society would be the first to support a dictator.
Still, I think after a few more massacres like this, Americans may come around to the idea that cigarettes weren't so good for them and guns aren't either. You know they've been kind of slow on other issues before, like slavery or segregation or lately global warming
You are certainly right that in the short term, changes are not to be expected. Republicans are generally pro-gun and most leading Democratic politicians consider gun control to be a battle that is not worth fighting because it'd lose them too many votes.
I forgot my sig.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 7:27pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | I can tell you Petter that over here, there is no trust in the police, and rightly so. The thing that angers a lot of people is the nerve of some thieves and burglars alike who actually file a suit against the people whose house they robbed, because these people dared protecting themselves and their property from their slimy hands!
And the Israeli police is SO incompetent. Maybe if they started shifting their focus from harmless weed smokers, and instead chase the real criminals (ya know, murderers and rapists and robbers) things will be different. Until then, things will remain the same, and people who aren't police officers, soldiers, hunters etc will apply for a license. That's why in Israel a lot of people echo the sentiments of gun advocates in the states.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 8:33pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Peter's concept is pretty close to the truth when it comes to how guns have become an entrenched part of our society. Simplistically, it helps to keep in mind that our country is not that old and the guarantee of law enforcement in all areas of the country is not much more than 110 to 130 years old which covers only about 3 generations or so. Also, keep in mind the land area and population of this country, not to mention that so much of it is very habitable as opposed to other countries with large land areas eg. Russia, Canada etc. In other words, you have some areas where there are large & small groups strung out over large land areas some of which have taken for granted having loaded weapons around for generations particulary in the mid-western & southern States. Then take the relative easy access to handguns and add the large urban & suburban populations with gangs and disaffected youths and you have a recipe for this sort of disaster. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but that's part of the equation!
I really don't know how we will get ourselves out of this over the long term. Personally, I'm in favor of much stricter gun control than we have now. I don't think that the average citizen needs to have access to 9mm semi-automatic handguns and the like. A good double-barrel shotgun should be enough for the defense of the average home and you can't mow down large numbers of people in a short time with just a shotgun.
The future ain't what it used to be!
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 8:51pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TC (18 APR 2007 7:27pm)
I can tell you Petter that over here, there is no trust in the police, and rightly so. The thing that angers a lot of people is the nerve of some thieves and burglars alike who actually file a suit against the people whose house they robbed, because these people dared protecting themselves and their property from their slimy hands!
That sounds like an issue with the law and perhaps judicial system, not the police... this seems to be a typical problem of civil law countries - some judges are happy to pass insane decisions as long as they comply with the letter of the law.
Over here, there are no frequent debates about guns which means everyone is more or less happy with status quo. Several years back the police chief complained that the rate of crimes committed with legal weapons was relatively high. He said that in situations where without guns, people would just have a fistfight, if they have guns they will shoot. That's something the gun advocates need to keep in mind.
I forgot my sig.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 9:20pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (18 APR 2007 8:33pm)
Also, keep in mind the land area and population of this country, not to mention that so much of it is very habitable as opposed to other countries with large land areas eg. Russian, Canada etc. In other words, you have some areas where there are large & small groups strung out over large land areas some of which have taken for granted having loaded weapons around for generations particulary in the mid-western & southern States.
That's been my experience... I would guess that the density of population per square mile and density of guns per capita are inversely proportional.
The unique history of the US is definitely a major reason for the current situation. In Europe, there simply never was a time when a large percentage of the population would own guns. By the time guns were invented, the place was already sufficiently "civilized" that there was no great advantage to owning a gun. There were no wild animals or marauding Indians, and professional armies were too well armed and organized anyway.
I really don't know how we will get ourselves out of this over the long term. Personally, I'm in favor of much stricter gun control than we have now.
In the Va. Tech case, the tragedy is that the killer was known to have psychological problems, he was scaring people, and he was suspected of being suicidal, but he could still buy two guns. I don't think anyone actually did anything wrong and I'm not trying to blame anyone. It just seems sad that there was no mechanism to put two and two together.
I believe things will change in the US, but it will take a long time. Many, many people will be shot in the meantime.
I don't think that the average citizen needs to have access to 9mm semi-automatic handguns and the like. A good double-barrel shotgun should be enough for the defense of the average home and you can't mow down large numbers of people in a short time with just a shotgun.
On top of that, shotguns and rifles are not so easy to conceal.
IMO, handguns are devices expressly designed to kill people (unlike shotguns or hunting rifles). Given that, people should not have a right to own one, they should have to prove a need to own one. Handguns are not like knives or axes or cars because they don't have a non-lethal primary purpose.
I forgot my sig.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 9:48pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Tighter gun control is definitely a step in the right direction. How about 12 months wait for the license and a full psychological profile? Any criminal infringement disqualifies the application. And then, there has to be a good reason for the gun.
As for allowing students to carry weapons..... ..... how many would-be Rambos would he have killed as they tried to take him down? How many traumatised students would have opted not to participate in the OK coral and jumped out of the windows and then felt guilty all their lives because they had a gun in their backpack? What if another student, trying to shoot him, had wounded or killed someone else?
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 9:58pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Caroline, what kind of changes, if any, were implemented in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre of '96?
I forgot my sig.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 11:06pm |
chronotigger65Journeyman
Posts : 1143
Joined: 23 FEB 2005
Status : Offline | Has anyone noticed that in the news that there may have been a mention that the killer was taking anti-depressants? I recall that in the Columbine shootings that one of the killers was on these types of pills which may have contributed to the actions of this person. The same thing could have been the the VT killer.
I mention near the begining of these topic that video game violence would be a subject that they would bring up because of this event. Well two days later with now knowing about the killer there hasn't been any mention of video or computer games found in the guys room. There's more talk about guns than video games, even on this forum. It's not to say that the topic wasn't being discussed. Imidiately after the shootings only two individuals really mentioned this. Who else then anti-video games activist Jack Thompson and phsychiatrist Dr. Phil. Seem they were both wrong.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 11:19pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | It has been reported here that the student was on anti-depressant medication. These things are given out like lollies nowadays. >
It also seems that he wanted to make the news, going by the latest report that he sent photos to NBC.
Michal
After Port Arthur (I was there last year) our govt instigated a gun buy-back program and a lot of guns were 'sold' back to the govt under the amnesty. I think too the licence laws were tightened. Really, apart from farmers and sportspeople, I don't see the need for guns in the general community. Australia has armed police but it's an offence for citizens to carry weapons of any sort. Even blades and other devices are outlawed. This does not stop gangland criminals, bikie gangs and other drug gangs from owning weapons (which they use against each other) and Asians lads who like to settle their differences with knives. All legal guns must by law be stored at home in a locked cupboard in an unloaded state which rather negates them as a home defence tool. Normal people regard an obsession with owning weapons as slightly sick. Unlike America where people hunt deer and have them butchered for the freezer, nobody here hunts kangaroo for the BBQ.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 11:25pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By chronotigger65 (18 APR 2007 11:06pm)
Has anyone noticed that in the news that there may have been a mention that the killer was taking anti-depressants? I recall that in the Columbine shootings that one of the killers was on these types of pills which may have contributed to the actions of this person.
There may be some confusion between cause and effect... mentally unstable people are likely to take anti-depressants. That doesn't mean anti-depressants made them do it (whatever they did). It is possible that anti-depressants are a contributing factor though.
Well two days later with now knowing about the killer there hasn't been any mention of video or computer games found in the guys room.
I heard he used to play Counterstrike! (really)
I forgot my sig.
|
| 18 APR 2007 at 11:51pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (18 APR 2007 11:25pm)
Originally Posted By chronotigger65 (18 APR 2007 11:06pm)
Has anyone noticed that in the news that there may have been a mention that the killer was taking anti-depressants? I recall that in the Columbine shootings that one of the killers was on these types of pills which may have contributed to the actions of this person.
There may be some confusion between cause and effect... mentally unstable people are likely to take anti-depressants. That doesn't mean anti-depressants made them do it (whatever they did). It is possible that anti-depressants are a contributing factor though.
You're pretty much on the right track. The broad group of SSRI anti-depressants (eg. Prozac-related) are taken by so many people (with no, some or moderate mental instability) that a correlation between those drugs and homicidal tendencies would have been found by now. If anything, there has been some correlation between their use and suicidal tendencies especially in younger people though not to any kind of an extreme.
The future ain't what it used to be!
|
| 19 APR 2007 at 5:33pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Caroline (18 APR 2007 11:19pm)
After Port Arthur (I was there last year) our govt instigated a gun buy-back program and a lot of guns were 'sold' back to the govt under the amnesty. I think too the licence laws were tightened.
Something similar is happening here, I saw an infomercial on TV for it a few weeks ago. For the second time, the police is having a gun amnesty period, where anyone is welcome to come to the police station and hand in their guns, no questions asked, no registration of your identity made. The last time they tried it, it was very successful and collected thousands of guns. Many people may have guns at home because they were left by deceased relatives and weren't properly taken cared of when they died, or they may belong to people with criminal connections that prevent them from wanting to handing them in under normal circumstances. I think it's a great idea.
Unlike America where people hunt deer and have them butchered for the freezer, nobody here hunts kangaroo for the BBQ.
Didn't they claim that in Canada there were more guns per capita than in the United States, simply because so many people hunt? Sweden is also a country with a lot of hunters, and I think there are many more hunting weapons around here than in other European countries.
It has often been debated whether the home guard troops should continue to be allowed to keep their issued military gun (an AK4, basically a modified Kalashnikov) in their home. The storage requirements have been tightened, so that you have to keep it in two parts (both required for the gun to work) in two separate safes in the house, and away from the ammunition. This makes it hard for a burglar to get the gun, while the owners can still arm themselves within the required time limit in case of a crisis situation. But after a few incidents with home guard members going mental and shooting wildly around themselves during the last few years, it has been criticized that they're allowed to store the guns at home in the first place.
|
| 19 APR 2007 at 8:36pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Well this man certainly got his 15 minutes of fame didn't he. What a dark and disturbed place his mind was. My children were horrifed at his videos. I think enough's enough now. No more air-time should be given to him. Let the bereaved deal with it without the TV lights. I can't imagine how his parents will cope with the guilt and grief of his actions.
|
