| 19 FEB 2003 at 6:20pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 5:42pm)
Exactly, that's why, no matter how much I try, I can't understand how you can say that the gameplay of Bad Mojo is the same as Syberia.
That's probably because that is not what I said. I was talking about the basic mechanics of gameplay -- that is, how one controls a cyber stand-in on the screen. That's the basic mechanics.
The gameplay -- how the game reveals its story through play -- is quite different. A fine point, to be sure, but an important one.
Whatever, stick with your ideas of "Bad Mojo being just another third-person game" and "Myst being a ground-breaking first-person game". Let's move on.
Don't think I ever said Bad Mojo was "just another third-person game." I said it wasn't a radical concept. It was, however, a brilliant public relations move. Got the guys from pulse entertainment a lot of attention. And, not that it matters, Bad Mojo is one of my favorite games.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 7:06pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | MrLipid said:
"What I do see is an effort at sleight of hand. Instead of talking about everything that came previously in the thread, the discussion has now been shifted to personal statements regarding overall game quality and a substitution of concept for format."
Betje said:
"I question your objective truth. I have no idea what it is based on and you either cannot or will not tell me. References to game publishers and designers are treated with contempt. Polls are "childish" and new gamers don't know what they're talking about. So what is left? Something you vaguely call "common sense". YOUR common sense, not mine. Back full circle."
Thankyou MrLipid and Betje for two remarkedly insightful comments. I keep hoping we can have a nice debate based on logical, responses to points made, but many of the responses are based on minute irrelevant parsing of each sentence or, at worst, totally out-of-place personal comments.
For instance, when I indicated my irritation with a major segment of adventure games being rejected as adventure games and used as a rebuttal the fact that companies called The Adventure Company marketed them, self-proclaimed adventure gamers described them as adventure games and the reviewers of websites like JustAdventure referred to them as adventure games, this was called 'irrelevant' and the fact that these were not adventure games was just a matter of 'common sense'. So, in response, I suggested a poll which would presumably determine what the 'common sense' on this issue is. This suggestion was called 'childish'.
Personally, I think it serves no purpose other than unnecessary provocation to come on an adventure game forum and tell at least half the posters that not only their favorite games but even the games that got them into adventuring in the first place are not adventure games. That's a whole different thing than just saying I don't like those kinds of games!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 7:17pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | OK, this little game of you didn't say what I said is getting pretty tiresome.
Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 6:19pm)
That's probably because that is not what I said. I was talking about the basic mechanics of gameplay -- that is, how one controls a cyber stand-in on the screen. That's the basic mechanics.
First was gameplay, now it's basic mechanics of gameplay - right. There's no point in talking about basic mechanics because, according to that quoted post (so that you can't say you didn't say that), basically, all third-person games are controlled the same (i.e.: you move a character on screen) and all first-person games are controlled the same. There's no point in discussing that.
But, since I was talking about gameplay-with-story (or whatever you want to call it), I will rephrase my statement: that Bad Mojo was a game with a radical new gameplay. Now could you, please, address that statement keeping in mind our new definition of gameplay?
Don't think I ever said Bad Mojo was "just another third-person game."
Perhaps my English sucks...
How is this totally (or even partially) different from any other third person game? (referring to the gameplay in Bad Mojo)
But I don't think so. Of course, you didn't say exactly "just another third-person game" but, in case you didn't know, you can say the same thing in many, many different ways.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 7:33pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | SirDave, I hope you weren't addressing me in your post. You perfectly know that when I said I loved getting on your nerves I was kidding, right? Also, if I said your comments were "irrelevant" (as a rebuttal) I explained to you my reasons. And I still find them very good reasons.
BTW, you still havn't answered my question.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 8:18pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 7:17pm)
Bad Mojo was a game with a radical new gameplay.
It's your claim. Prove it. Explain to everyone gathered here how the revelation of the story in Bad Mojo deserves to be called "radical." What sets it apart from everything that came before it?
And speaking just for myself, saying that one crawls over newspaper clippings rather than just reading them probably isn't going to be quite enough to make the case.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 8:37pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 8:18pm)
It's your claim. Prove it. Explain to everyone gathered here how the revelation of the story in Bad Mojo deserves to be called "radical." What sets it apart from everything that came before it?
Sorry, I won't. I'm not wasting anymore time with this. Take my word for it, Bad Mojo not only deserves to be called radical but unique, both in terms of story and gameplay. Tell you what - prove to my how Myst was a totally different experience than anything seen before (and before you say you didn't say that check the other thread) and then I'll explain to you in deep detail why Bad Mojo is such an unique game. Anyway, you still owe me that explanation.
And speaking just for myself, saying that one crawls over newspaper clippings rather than just reading them probably isn't going to be quite enough to make the case.
I'm not sure what you mean by that but, in case you were wondering, my statement about Bad Mojo and many others are based on my experience, not newspaper clippings.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 8:59pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 8:36pm)
Sorry, I won't. I'm not wasting anymore time with this.
That's a relief.
Take my word for it, Bad Mojo not only deserves to be called radical but unique, both in terms of story and gameplay.
Tell me more about one of my favorite games.
Tell you what - prove to my how Myst was a totally different experience than anything seen before (and before you say you didn't say that check the other thread) and then I'll explain to you in deep detail why Bad Mojo is such an unique game. Anyway, you still owe me that explanation.
Nope. on't owe you a thing. Not going in those circles again. "Simple stuff...good ideas...already established concepts..." And you still insist on misquoting me.
I'm not sure what you mean by that but, in case you were wondering, my statement about Bad Mojo and many others are based on my experience, not newspaper clippings.
One crawls over newspaper clippings in Bad Mojo. Or did you forget? This would make it different than, say, just reading those clippings as one does in, say, NOIR.
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 10:17pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 8:59pm)
Tell me more about one of my favorite games.
And what does that have to do with anything? Is that supposed to be an argument?
OK, let's drop Bad Mojo!
Here you go - more unique and radically different adventures for you to chew on.
Bad Day On The Midway
The Dark Eye
The Last Express
Amazing - those are first-person games with radically different gameplay. Not only that, the concept behind these games is surprisingly different.
Loom
Oh boy - a third-person game with radically different gameplay than any other third-person game.
I hope none of the games is one of your favorite games...
(I know I said I was going to quit but I'm actually enjoying this)
And you still insist on misquoting me.
Right - well, I guess I must be dreaming then. Sorry!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 10:53pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 7:33pm)
Also, if I said your comments were "irrelevant" (as a rebuttal) I explained to you my reasons. And I still find them very good reasons.
BTW, you still havn't answered my question.
I'm assuming you mean the question below which I purposely avoided answering because the answer seem so self-explanatory, but, groan, okay!
"In fact, your fact is quite irrelevant - so what if a company called "The Adventure Company" is marketing games as "adventures"? Does that mean their games have to be adventures? What does that have to do with anything?? "
Your answer is an example of what I am referring to as parsing. You take a collective answer and snippet out one sentence and call it into question, ignoring the rest of the answer which may not have been included because it made so much sense. My original full remark was:
They are marketed by companies that call themselves things like The Adventure Company, they are played by adventure game fanatics everywhere, and they are reviewed by adventure game reviews on websites called things like JustAdventure.
The full remark is very relevant and the reasons should be obvious:
1. The Dreamcatcher/The Adventure Company almost by definition has marketed adventure games as their main product (feel free to call them up and see what they consider their main product); many of their games which they themselves describe as adventure games are 1st person point and click Myst-like games. To respond with 'what does this have to do with anything' is to ignore the obvious. The fact that some of their games might not be adventures doesn't make the main point 'quite irrelevant'.
2.Myst/Riven-like games are played by adventure game fanatics everywhere and they define them in their minds as adventure games. This isn't just a few silly gadflys; this is a sizable number of gamers that use this forum. That's relevant!
3.The fact that adventure game reviewers on this and other adventure websites review these games as adventure games is probably the most relevant since most of these reviewers have a long, varied adventure game experience. I have yet to see one of the reviewers of the games I'm talking about say something like, 'this is a good game, but since there's a lot of exploration and puzzles and little character interaction, it's not an adventure game'.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 11:02pm |
| Deleted User | I suggest you guy give up before you both implode!
RAEL - What music do you have in your country at the mo'? Rock is mainstream here in the UK and the US at the mo'... I wasn't trying to get at you earlier, I just thought it was an unjustified comment! Soz!
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 11:20pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By monkeybone (19 FEB 2003 11:02pm)
I suggest you guy give up before you both implode!
It is said that if you can't take the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen. I've read recent posts of people standing in a hot spot next to the kitchen door : "Isn't it hot in there! Far too hot for me!" You are the first one to tell the debaters in the kitchen that they can't take the heat either. How do you know? Wasn't the hot spot created just for this kind of heated discussion that isn't everybody's cup of tea?
Betje
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| 19 FEB 2003 at 11:28pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I like hot cups of tea.
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 12:01am |
| Deleted User | Milk and sugar, madam?
Betje
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 12:28am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (19 FEB 2003 4:19pm)
Your memory doesn't serve you well. Yes, there were a few other people, as there were in Myst and Riven. No, you were a genderless player. No personality, no background. This is an objective, observable fact, not my subjective opinion.
there were no other ppl in myst (haven't played riven to the end)... only the 2 video-taped guys talking out of a book, and the guy at the end... and about GoT, what difference does gender make? you were genderless in most txt advs weren't you? what was your gender in the pawn, in jinxter, in myth, in time & magik, in silicon dreams and generally in most txt advs? did this make you personallity-less? i don't think so... in GoT you were a thief... you could identify with that... you were thinking what can you do to steal what you needed to steal? how can you sneak into areas... you were "living" like the main character... while in myst there was no identification... the main character was nothing... there could even be no main character! just a camera walking around (pulling levers!)
This isn't about Guild of Thieves, of course. We agree that it's a fine adventure. But GoT clearly shows that your criteria suck.
GoT shows nothing at all... only that i got good taste!
I question your objective truth. I have no idea what it is based on and you either cannot of will not tell me. References to game publishers and designers are treated with contempt. Polls are "childish" and new gamers don't know what they're talking about. So what is left? Something you vaguely call "common sense". YOUR common sense, not mine. Back full circle.
polls are not childish as long as they can include a good sample... and that's practically impossible... as for common sense, well yeah, maybe walking around (pulling levers!) is an adv after all and i'm crazy... and maybe king's quest, monkey island, tlj, simon1&2, the icom 4 are actually flight sims... what's the objective truth anyway :
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 12:31am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (19 FEB 2003 3:44pm)
Aya - Mary Star Of The Sea is the best Corgan Album since Mellon Collie - it's basically the best bits of that! Melodic Rock, with hooks from hell!
it sure will be better than machina! : btw the title is so "corganish" it hurts!!!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 1:03am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (19 FEB 2003 10:16pm)
And what does that have to do with anything? Is that supposed to be an argument?
Not at all. Bad Mojo is one of my favorite games. As I said before, I'd be interested in your comments.
OK, let's drop Bad Mojo!
Unless, of course, you have no interest in sharing those comments.
Here you go - more unique and radically different adventures for you to chew on.
Bad Day On The Midway
The Dark Eye
The Last Express
Amazing - those are first-person games with radically different gameplay. Not only that, the concept behind these games is surprisingly different.
And I love them all.
Loom
Oh boy - a third-person game with radically different gameplay than any other third-person game.
Never played it. Never even saw it in a store.
I hope none of the games is one of your favorite games...
Guess you lose.
(I know I said I was going to quit but I'm actually enjoying this)
Anything that makes you happy, Rael, anything that makes you happy.
Right - well, I guess I must be dreaming then. Sorry!
No, I suspect misquoting people is just a convenient habit.
Seriously, I would love to hear some positive commentary from you on any of these games. They are all, with the exception of Loom, personal favorites. So let's hear it, Rael!
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 1:10am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | I can't say enough good things about all of those games but my points is - are those games radically different in gameplay to you? Do you think they're unique? Forget about Loom if you want.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 1:18am |
JPSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 217
Joined: 24 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By monkeybone (19 FEB 2003 11:02pm)
I suggest you guy give up before you both implode!
RAEL - What music do you have in your country at the mo'? Rock is mainstream here in the UK and the US at the mo'... I wasn't trying to get at you earlier, I just thought it was an unjustified comment! Soz!
Monkeybone - what makes you think rock is mainstream in the UK ?. If you're talking about the pap that appears on Radio 1 and Top of the Pops then that definitely is not Rock! The Hives, Coldplay, The Libertines, The Strokes, all might have catchy tunes but they are pop at its best and nothing more!
If you want to listen to decent rock music then you should be checking out bands like Nine Inch Nails, Pearl Jam, Monster Magnet and Alice In Chains, to name a few - they are rock bands!
By the way, the best album Smashing Pumpkins have ever done is Gish, closely followed by Melon Collie!
Bow down before the one you serve&&You're going to get what you deserve !
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 1:24am |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (20 FEB 2003 1:10am)
I can't say enough good things about all of those games...
So say something already!
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 1:30am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP (20 FEB 2003 1:18am)
By the way, the best album Smashing Pumpkins have ever done is Gish, closely followed by Melon Collie!
NO WAY! Siamese Dream is THE top (followed by gish, mellon collie and pisces iscariot)... if you want to argue that, take it to the music thread!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 6:50am |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Remember Billy singing "isarm"? In that MTV video? As video's go, that wasn't bad. He always was the verbose romantic sturm and drang guy.
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 9:40am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aya Brea (20 FEB 2003 12:28am)
there were no other ppl in myst (haven't played riven to the end)... only the 2 video-taped guys talking out of a book, and the guy at the end...
I remember exactly 4 people in GoT: the guild master who made an appearance at the beginning and the end (just like Atrius in Myst); the guard to the castle, the miller, the bank director.
and about GoT, what difference does gender make? you were genderless in most txt advs weren't you?
In many, yes. Not very good for your AG criterium of character development.
what was your gender in the pawn, in jinxter, in myth, in time & magik, in silicon dreams and generally in most txt advs? did this make you personallity-less? i don't think so... in GoT you were a thief... you could identify with that... you were thinking what can you do to steal what you needed to steal? how can you sneak into areas... you were "living" like the main character... while in myst there was no identification... the main character was nothing... there could even be no main character! just a camera walking around (pulling levers!)
I'm repeating myself, I know, but then so are you. Nonsense, you had no identity, no character, no personality, no gender in GoT, just a mission: finding treasures. In Myst you had no identity, no character, no personality, no gender and you had to discover what your mission was: finding pages. Sounds like a true adventure to me. You didn't need to "think like a thief" in GoT, you had to solve very hard puzzles to get access to some areas/treasures. Sneak into areas? HA! Come off it, go replay the game. In Myst you had to pull levers and figure out how to get access to areas/pages. What's the big difference?
polls are not childish as long as they can include a good sample... and that's practically impossible... You an expert on polls too?
as for common sense, well yeah, maybe walking around (pulling levers!) is an adv after all and i'm crazy...
So this is what your "objective truth" amounts to after all. Aya's highly personal, subjective opinions and preferences. Nothing objective about it.
Betje
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 10:05am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By MrLipid (20 FEB 2003 1:24am)
So say something already!
Nobody's saying anything. :'(
Those games are in my top ten too. I love all three of them. Imo, Bad Day on the Midway and The Dark Eye are true pieces of art. That takes a genius, I know. Not every adventure game should be a piece of art. But having the player switch characters and read the scrolling thoughts of his temporary character were both novel ideas, very effective. I wouldn't mind a few clones.
Betje
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| 20 FEB 2003 at 11:03am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (19 FEB 2003 8:59pm)
Tell me more about one of my favorite games.
I think I misunderstood this. So you agree that Bad Mojo is a radically different and unique game in terms of gameplay, but not the basic mechanics of gameplay where you only control your cyber stand-in on screen, the gameplay that includes story and puzzles?
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